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An Interesting Comparison: Crisis Vs. Stealth
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Old 11 Feb 2006, 04:48   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default An Interesting Comparison: Crisis Vs. Stealth

Our two elite units, the oft- adored Stealth and the poster unit Crisis.

One task: Burst Cannon Firepower.

Basics:

Crisis with Twin linked Burst Cannons and a Target Lock are a more durable, reliable version of the stealth suit which in some cases can cost less. They reduce the stealth's shooting innaccuracy but sacrifice volume.

Stealths provide a more eccentric alternative to the safe crisis BC system. They can avoid fire power and then pump out their own. While the rule of large numbers states they will get .5 of their hits, variance can always occur. In other words, that twin linked burst cannon goes a long way towards consistently hitting the enemy.

One match up: Point for point power.

Let's go to the scoreboard:

Category Crisis Stealth
Points Per Model 50 30
Points Per Squad 50-150 90-180

Abilities [Both] Jump pack, Deep Strike, Elite Slot, Leader and Vre same cost,
Bond capability, WS, BS, I, A, Ld, and Sv all the same

Bonus Crisis Stealth
Strength Infiltrate
Toughness Counts as in cover when in melee
Wounds Night fight at all times
Target Locked Markerlight Potential (Leader, +10 pts)
Twin Linked More Members = more shots
Lower Base Cost Lower Cost Per Model, even w/ markerlight

Evaluate: 150 Pt. Crisis Squad vs. 150 Pt. Stealth Squad
Twin Linked BC, TL 5 Stealth Suits

Number of Shots: 9 15
Chance to Hit: 75% 50%
Avg. Hit: 7.25 Hits (7 Hits) 7.5 Hits (7-8 Hits)
Chance to Wound: v. T3: 66% v. T4: 50%
Avg. Wound: 4.8 (4-5 Wounds) 3.75 (3-4)
Enemy Save: 3+ (66% Save) 3+ (66%) Save
Avg. Kill: 1.6 (1-2 Wounds) 1.25 (1 Kill)
Opponent Left: 4 - 3 Models (3 = Ld. Check) 3 Models (No Ld. Save)

Analysis: A 6 Wound 3 Man squad of Crisis Twin linked BC with Target Locks can face down a 5 wound 5 man squad of stealths. Note that the stealths can get benefits from their Stealth technology, effectively halving the Crisis's number of potential shots as half the time they won't be able to see the stealths. However, it is my experience that players generally roll well when facing 2d6 x3 Night Fight range. This argument is not convincing enough without stating that Crisis will win in melee.

DISCLAIMER: I apologize for this perverse observation as it offends Tau nature, but is being used to prove a point which may be for the greater good.

To test my hypothesis, I will observe a close combat - many apologies again - between the two squads(statistically)

Tactic:Crisis move in close enough to shoot and charge (6")

Night Fight Roll > 6: 35/36 (2*3 = snake eyes roll), very likely to see.
Night Fight Roll > 12 (assault move +6" charge range): 33/36, still very likely
Shoot: See above, kill on average 1.6: 1-2 stealths.
Potential Leadership save: Ld 8, 25% Casualties, .72 chance they do not run.
Charge: Stealths go first but Crisis get +1 Attack
(Stealth Attack: 4 or 3 attacks (based on models left)
Same weapon skill = 4+ Hit, 50% Chance => 2 or 1.5 hits (based on models left)
Strength v. Toughness: 3 v. 4 (33% chance Damage) => .66 wounds or .5 Wounds)
Crisis Save: 3+ (66% chance save) .22 or .1666 receive a wound

Crisis Each have 2 wounds, will likely survive the attack.
Now, their attack.
Charge: 3 Crisis * 2 Attacks = 6 Attacks
Same Weapon Skill= 4+ hit (50%)= 3 Hits
Strength v. Toughness: 4 v. 3 ( 66% chance damage) = 2 Wounds
Stealth Save: 3+ (66% Survive) => .66 receive a wound
Stealth only have 1 wound, likely 1 will die. This will require a leadership save for losing melee.

Ld 8 .72 chance they do not run.

The stealths already lost 1-2 from shooting, plus another 1 from melee. Lose either 2, hence regular ld 8, or 3, below half strength, -1 penalty, so ld. 7.

Ld. 7 gives .58 chance they do not run.

If they run, stealths must face Initiative check. So really its 1d6 v. 1d6, 50% chance that they are wiped out.

All in all, Crisis beat stealths mano a mano.

On the other hand, used in their role v. other armies/units, we see the toughness of enemies lowering, and Stealths coming out ahead:

v. t3

Crisis Avg Hit: 7.25
Crisis Avg. Kill v. Enemy w/o Save: 4.8
Stealth Avg. Hit: 7.5
Stealth Avg. Kill Enemy w/o Save: 5

However, Stealth only do this slightly.

The key here is variance vs. volume of shots. The Crisis have a wider range of shot-kills, from 0 to 15, whereas the Crisis's range is only 0-9. However, the Stealths don't reroll misses, making for a higher variance - you're more likely to roll bad. The Crisis reroll guarantees a few more hits per volley, which can be a major boon.

All in all, the Crisis seem to be a more balanced unit. Point for point, they provide a tougher, higher wound unit with the ability to ignore the enemy's strategy of overkill fire using the target lock. They hit more reliably than the crisis suit and cost loss for a minimum squad size.

On the other hand, the Stealth can give you the volume of firepower you might need for facing swarms. they can infiltrate, use stealth technology to ignore enemy firepower, and can come in larger groups for additional volume of firepower. They are a more eccentric and offensive unit than the more solid, sure crisis.

So next time you wanna try something different, consider a "stealth suit" Crisis. It could be fun.


Good old Mathhammer. Fine job (+1). - Khanaris
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Old 11 Feb 2006, 06:21   #2 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: An Interesting Comparison: Crisis Vs. Stealth

You overlooked something. Physcological warfare.

One of two things happen with stealth suits against the majority of players. One, they underestimate them, and throw paltry amounts of fire at them (keeping them alive). Two, they get paranoid of them, and pump legions of shots into them. This will often result in the opponent wasting alot of his fire (due to Stealth Field).

Of course really good players won't do either of those things.

An annoyance is often far more effective than a big unit. It gets the opponent flustered and they make stupid mistakes. I played against an Eldar guy once, and as nothing he did made sense (that I could see), I got so distracted I didn't pick my targets properly, and got annihilated.

Also on the pyschology note, a Crisis Suit is big. Your opponents will have bad memories of Crisis Suits killing them. The fact you are reminding them of the suit's existence every assault phase means it will be targeted. And with your suit (no shield generator) it only takes one Lascannon hit to take it out. One.

Stealth Suits are small. They are far away from the rest of your army. As unlikely as it sounds BOTH players often forget about the Stealth Suits. They are far less likely to be shot at than a massive bulky suit flying around looking very expensive (even though it really isn't).

Just my thoughts.

As much as I applaud you for making the effort, I really do not like averages. As much as they make sense mathematically they rarely translate into real life. There are just too many variables.

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Old 11 Feb 2006, 10:43   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: An Interesting Comparison: Crisis Vs. Stealth

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faolin


Stealth Suits are small.
That will be changed int he upcoming codex (in which case i'll also have to revise my thread here to include Fusion blasters)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faolin

I really do not like averages. As much as they make sense mathematically they rarely translate into real life. There are just too many variables.
The trick is, the average explains the reasoning, but the idea is simply to look at the upside of the twin linked burst cannon as compared to the volume of shots. The result is that the twin link reduces the number of misses more efficiently than volumous shots, at the cost of a higher kill potential.
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Old 11 Feb 2006, 10:59   #4 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: An Interesting Comparison: Crisis Vs. Stealth

Well I'll have to go with the crisis suit. I'll mention with the old rules. than I'll mention with the new
Old
1. the burst can is 18" range. so you'll have to get in firring range. \
A. The crisis suits can infiltrate which means they would be 1ft-!8inches away from the enemy. Hell you get a remeasure to see if they are 18 inches when you place them. So when it's your turn you should always be able to fire at the unit
B. the crisis suit it's doubt full that you'll be in range for the first turn and you may luck up on the second turn to be able to fire
2.
A. the stealth suits will draw a lot of attention away from your army which is good
B. the crisis suits will draw more than likely not shots away if they are hiding if the not than they are gonna get hit with ins-ta kill love
3. Survive ability
A. it's very hard to kill stealth suits. I fought elder today and his whole army took 3 turns to kill my suits. both squads of suits killed about 30-40 guardians in those 3 turns. The reason they killed that many and died cause we was playing cleanse and I had a squad per corner. He forgot about all my stuff trying to run them down and kill them. I played many games where if they couldn't hide the fact the couldn't bee seen saved them lots of time and it does effect the other player due to them getting frustrated from trying to kill them. The only negative about them is they not like gonna get you a good sports man score
B. with the crisis suits if you see them they get hit.
4. What usually gets thrown at stealth and crisis.
In my experience people like shooting the heavy crap to easily get rid of the 3+ save factor
A. one brightlance hit no morale rolls
b. One brightlance you now down to two crisis suits and you better make that morale check even though you have a 6 to 5 wound ratio.
5. Lucky roller and Maximum Fire Power
You mentioned the average and now I'm pointing out potential shots
A. you have 15 potential shots on a 4+
b. You have 9 potential shots which the crisis suits
Potentially you have a chance to kill more with the 5 stealth suits than you do with the crisis.

Overall I don't think one of them is better than the other. But I think it's silly to put burst canons on a crisis suit. Stealth suits are wonderful for taking out solders but lacking in taking out AR 12 or higher even AR 11 is kinda hard for them. But I use crisis suits to kill mARines and to take out ar 10-13 vechicle. Ar 14 vehicle is why I have broadsides and tanks.

My crisis suits last a long time due to the fact I try to keep them at least 2ft away from the enemy. I like the plasma rifle and missile pod config. I think any thing under 2ft is putting them in the red zone and they better have force fields at that point. I think a melta gun is worth putting on them but it's usually turn 3 before I can use it and that's 4 str 7 shots I missed out on.

Oh with the new rules I like stealth suits more due to the hardpoint the have and you can make them BS 4 or have 12 gun drones to come along with them.
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Old 11 Feb 2006, 11:45   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: An Interesting Comparison: Crisis Vs. Stealth

ummm... im prolly just dumb but did you notice that you changed what the crisis suits were shooting at compared to the stealth. The crisis suits are shooting at a t of 3 squad where as the stealths are shooting at a t of 4 squad. Once again my apologies if i am wrong but i just thought i should point that out seeing as how it would change your analysis of the situation. Also, in my experience my stealth suits tend to live for a very long time because people are weary of deciding to shoot at them and end up not even seeing them. IDK just my two cents
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Old 11 Feb 2006, 11:50   #6 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: An Interesting Comparison: Crisis Vs. Stealth




Stealth Suits are small.

[/quote]

That will be changed int he upcoming codex (in which case i'll also have to revise my thread here to include Fusion blasters)

Still small just more options but stats basickly the same for the most point.
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Old 11 Feb 2006, 12:29   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: An Interesting Comparison: Crisis Vs. Stealth


A good effort on the maths, and it does raise some valid pts.

However I disagree with the conclusion.

My first critism is that you test the crisis suits and stealths firing against each other. How often does that happen ? In most tournaments and gaming clubs there are usually very few Tau players. A better comparison is to show the stats of each unit firing at a very common enemy. This is normally a MEQ, ie. T4, 3+ save, or GEQ, ie. T3, 5+ save. Getting the units to fire against each other benefits the crisis suit.

When looking at the survivability of the unit you must consider the stealth field. If a crisis suit is within 24" (ie. jumping backwards after firing the burst cannons) then it can be killed by any lascannon that has line of sight. The stealths on the other hand will only receive fire from nearby units, as units over 21" away have a worse than 50:50 chance of seeing them (this fact alone will normally mean that units that far away will probably not even attempt to fire on the stealths).

Thirdly (and the main reason I would keep burst cannons on stealths and not crisis suits) is to look at the army options as a whole. If I want str 5 ap 5 shots I can get them from fire warriors, gun drones, broadside sms, hammerhead secondary weapons and of course stealths and crisis suits. If I want missile pods for light vehicles, plasma for heavy infrantry, or fusion guns I have to have crisis suits.

Effective burst cannon use requires the unit carrying them to be able to get close to the enemy fast, and be able to survive being that close to the enemy. Stealths can do this because of infiltrate and stealth. With neither of these skills crisis suits are better staying back using terrain and J-S-J for their protection meaning longer range weapons are better suited on them.

Burst cannons are better on stealths because they have the other skills (infiltrate and stealth) to use them more effectively.

Crisis suits are good because they are the most cost effective light vehicle killer with twin missiles, and the the perfect killing blow for heavy infrantry with either twin plasma or helios.

Maths is always a good start for unit comparison, but should only be the start. Range, Survivability and Effectiveness at getting into the right firing position should also be taken into account. With the maths stealths and crisis suits with burst cannons are close, however the stealths will be in a postion to fire first turn (the crisis suits will only be in range turn one if the enemy deploys scouts in line of sight within 24" or the enemy goes first and walks towards the crisis suit). Without the stealth field crisis suits are not too survivable operating that close to the enemy. These other factors make stealths the easy winner for burst cannons.

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Old 11 Feb 2006, 12:37   #8 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: An Interesting Comparison: Crisis Vs. Stealth

Thirdly (and the main reason I would keep burst cannons on stealths and not crisis suits) is to look at the army options as a whole. If I want str 5 ap 5 shots I can get them from fire warriors, gun drones, broadside sms, hammerhead secondary weapons and of course stealths and crisis suits. If I want missile pods for light vehicles, plasma for heavy infrantry, or fusion guns I have to have crisis suits.

I love this statement and wished i mentioned it. I concur with the rest of the comments. The crisis suits are better suited with heavier weapons that has range to be usable in the first turn I say. I never take the melta gun due to the 1 shot and the fact you'll have to get really close to use. It's not bad but I have 5 rail guns and 4 str 8 seeker missles why i NEED A MELTA GUN.
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Old 11 Feb 2006, 12:45   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: An Interesting Comparison: Crisis Vs. Stealth

Hi,

I don't use meltas either and I have only 3 railguns and no seekers. However it can be useful on crisis suits to nail heavy infrantry once they've been lured in. Plasma, Melta & multitracker suits (called helios) pump out 3 ap2 shots each at 12". Few things are as cost effective at killing marines and terminators that close.

Personally I use twin plasma suits, because it gives me the same kill ratio at 12" and allows me to add a missile pod to fire at transports and light vehicles early game.

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Old 11 Feb 2006, 13:04   #10 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: An Interesting Comparison: Crisis Vs. Stealth

opps I ment to say wished instead of which I changed it now. But I agree with you to but I love to go with the multitracker plasma and missle pod. That way 25-36" I have 2 shots. 13-24" 3 shots. 0-12" 4 shots. It's very effective and also I get comments like dang it those stupid suits are still shooting. With 3 suits average at a foot I can kill 1-2 with plasma and I may kill one more due too three hits on a 2+ to wound. Also I can take out 13 armor vehicles, but I use them for 11-12 though.
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