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Elite Crisis Suit Weapons, Targetting Arrays and Twinlinking
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Old 01 Feb 2006, 16:51   #1 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Elite Crisis Suit Weapons, Targetting Arrays and Twinlinking

I've been rethinking the Helios, after noticing how much cover affects Plasma Rifles, and I thought I'd share yet more math with everybody. I'm thinking about what the effects of Targeting Arrays and Twinlinking have on weapons, and whether either would be better than a Multitracker on Elite Crisis suits that have three slots and no ability to take a Hardwired system.

Basically, the strengths of the Crisis suit are in it's ability to change out weapons to suit the enemy and it's mobility on the battlefield. Everyone has seen variation after variation of Crisis suit, and nobody can agree on what is best. That's fine. Everyone's tactics are different, and suit configurations have to support the tactics being used. I'm not saying my TL Plasma Rifle and Fusion Blaster is the best configuration. I'm saying it's the best for the tactics I use against the armys I face.

But now I'm starting to doubt my choices. Cover makes Helios suits far less effective, and Helios suits are one of the most expensive suits available. The math I've done below is based on Marine targets.

The goal is a Crisis suit config effective against Marines and weaker infantry, regardless of cover, and effective at a range that can prevent assault reliably against most opponents.

Burst Cannon
.333 MEQ kills
TL .4999
TA .444
TL+TA .529

Plasma Rifle
12 .8333 MEQ kills
24 .4166 MEQ kills
TL 12 1.25, 24 .625
TA 12 1.111, 24 .555
TL+TA 12 1.48, 24 .740

Fusion Blaster
.4166 MEQ kills
TL .625
TA .555
TL+TA .740

Missile Pod
.2777 MEQ kills
TL .4155
TA .370
TL+TA .4938

Flamer
.1666 MEQ kills per MEQ affected
TL .25 MEQ kills per MEQ affected

Twin-linking is more effective than a Targeting Array. The Targeting Array will affect all weapons on the suit, however. Since the suits in question have only three slots, and no Multitrackers, the Targeting Array does not appear to be a viable option here, unless I'm using a single Twin-linked weapon with a Targeting Array.

The Plasma Rifle is the top dog in the list. What isn't shown by the math is that it is the most expensive weapon, and it is vastly affected by cover saves. The Fusion Blaster is also affected.

The Flamer is quite the surprise. TonkaTruckDriver mentioned that the Flamer was cheap and effective, particularly against large masses of marines. The big problem I have with this weapon is the range. I fear assault more than anything.

Since our Elite Crisis Suits have such poor assault performance, I'd like to remove any weapon with less than 12" of range from consideration. This gives us the range to shoot without being assaulted or rapid fired by the marine on foot. This leaves the Plasma Rifle, Burst Cannon, and the Missile Pod to work with.

There is still a lot of options here. Three weapons, two support systems, and twin linking. Two weapons and a multitracker haven't been discussed yet, so at 12"+ range...

Plasma Rifle, Missile Pod, Multitracker for .6943 MEQ kills
Plasma Rifle, Burst Cannon, Multitracker for .75 MEQ kills
Burst Cannon, Missile Pod, Multitracker for .611 MEQ kills

There is a lot to be said for these configurations. The two Plasma Rifle configurations force Marines to seek cover, slowing them down, then have increased shots to make up for cover. The Burst Cannon/Missile Pod combo is not affected by cover at all, and still has decent range. All three of these configurations outperform the basic configurations above, with the exception of the TL PR+TA configuration that matches the PR/BC/MT config. The added advantage to the PR/BC/MT config is the performance against targets in cover.

So how does the PR/BC/MT config work against Marine targets in cover versus the BC/MP/MT config, which is not affected by cover, at 12"+ range?

PR/BC BC/MP
6+ .680 .611
5+ .610 .611
4+ .541 .611
3+ .472 .611

As I've said, the Plasma Rifle's effectiveness comes from not allowing Armor Saves versus Marine targets. There is other considerations here. Plasma Rifles force Space Marines into cover, so having a Plasma Rifle in a squad could slow down a marine force on foot by making them do Difficult Terrain tests, and taking less direct routes. The Missile Pod can do double duty as a weapon effective against light vehicles. The Missile Pod also has a massive range. And the BC/MP/MT config is very effective against weaker infantry.

The cost effectiveness of these configurations is also important. A PR/BC/MT suit with a Shas'ui costs 58 points, for a cost of 77.33 points per wound. A BC/MP/MT suit with a Shas'ui costs 50 points, for a cost of 81.833 points per wound. The effectiveness at 12-18" between the two suits, with no cover, is practically the same, favoring the BC/MP/MT config against targets in cover or less armor.

Now the Burst Cannon is the weapon of the Stealthsuit. Which is more cost effective to operate? A Stealthsuit runs at 90 points per wound, slightly worse than the BC/MP/MT config. The Stealthsuit still has the Stealth Armor advantage, but lacks the Missile Pod's strength against light vehicles.

Well, I'm surprised at the results, but the Burst Cannon, Missile Pod, Multitracker looks like the most effective combination for my Elites. I think I might operate the Team Leader with a PR/BC/MT and a HW DC with a pair of Gun Drones for added firepower, pinning checks, plus the Plasma Rifle to send Marines ducking for cover. As TonkaTruckDriver stated in another post, the Cyclical Ion Blaster and a Burst Cannon look like a good option for a Commander, performing slightly better than the BC/MP/MT config against Marines, and unleashing a massive 8 shots against weaker opponents from 18". The new drone and markerlight rules make taking Gun Drones a useful upgrade.

Any comments or questions?


Nice analysis. +1 - Khanaris
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Old 01 Feb 2006, 17:16   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Elite Crisis Suit Weapons, Targetting Arrays and Twinlinking

Excellent job, you've identified some interesting ideas.

The Plasma/Burst combo is the sleeper of the XV8 configs. A lot of people don't consider it because "Burst Cannons are better left to Stealths". Especially now that Burst Cannons are getting cheaper on XV8's, it's definately worth re-considering them. In general, I think you're right, Twinlinking is still better than the Target Array. The only exception to that might be when considering a Twinlinked Plasma Rifle on a 2-weapon Shas'El. Here, the Plasma is so expensive that adding the Target Array makes sense. For example, instead of a Shas'El with:

[Twinlinked Plasma, Fusion, HW Multitracker] (97 pts) (2.037 Meq kills at 12")

bring this instead:

[Plasma, Fusion, Target Array, HW Multitracker] (97 pts) (2.083 Meq kills at 12")


And this guy has the added benefit of having boosted chance to hit with his Fusion Blaster which helps for killing Characters and Vehicles. The downside is (very) slightly less chance to hit at long range with the single Plasma shot.



On a more general note, I think the only think you need to consider is why you feel XV8's should be slated for Meq killing duty. While XV8 configs exist which are slightly more efficient than Stealths, Stealths have the advantage of being able to operate independent of terrain, have the infiltrate ability, and are more resistant to panic from taking casualties. These benefits (IMO) more than make up for their very slight reduction in efficiency from a select few XV8 configs. As I've said before, the only thing XV8's truly excel at, and therefore the only thing they're truly "required" for, is killing 2+ saves and light vehicles. In my mind, a lot of this discussion about "What is the best XV8 config for killing Meq's" is moot... since I never kill Meq's with my XV8's anyhow.
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Old 01 Feb 2006, 17:57   #3 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Elite Crisis Suit Weapons, Targetting Arrays and Twinlinking

Yeah, twinlinking is most effective on BS 3. The gain from twinlinking varies based on BS.

BS Hit Prob TL Hit Prob Gain
1 .166 .30 .138
2 .33 .55 .222
3 .5 .75 .25
4 .66 .88 .222
5 .833 .971 .138

Basically, with two weapons and a HW Multitracker, you can shift one weapon into the TL column by twinlinking, or both weapons down to the next higher BS with a Targeting Array.

I think it's my lack of experience that has me using Crisis suits for MEQ killing. I haven't played against any other armies, yet. And playing against Dark Angels, fielding Marines, Terminators, Transports, Tanks, and Dreadnoughts, I like using the Crisis suits as a "catch-all". They tend to be the one versatile unit in my army capable of taking weapons for any target, except the Hammerheads. With their mobility, I use them to respond to areas that are under threat, bolstering the Fire Warrior lines by adding firepower or destroying vehicles that the Hammerheads and Broadsides haven't been able to.

Crisis suit configuration reflects the tactics used by the player. I want suits that can respond to developing crisis, you want light vehicle killers and 2+ armor busters. It's the cover issue that's getting me. I mean, it doesn't take much cover for the cost effectiveness of a Helios to be overtaken by something like the BC/MP/MT config at range against MEQs. And I'm realizing that when I do play against other armies, particuarly "swarm" armies, the Helios is overpowered. My tactics are evolving to where I'd prefer to keep my expensive Crisis suits away from the enemy, not jumping between 10-16 inches to effectively fire the Helios'. I still think Helios has the most firepower, but it needs to be close to do it's thing and it's not the most effective configuration for weaker enemies.

Something I'd like to expand on sometime is effectiveness of Crisis suits against Terminators. The basic answer is that Burst Cannon class weapons are half as effective against 2+ saves, and Plasma Rifle class weapons lose 1/3rd of their effectiveness against 5+ invulnerable saves, as compared to MEQs. But I play with a lot of 4+ cover, putting Plasma Rifles with Burst Cannons. And with Storm Bolters, Assault Cannon, and Powerfists, Terminators are dangerous at all ranges. My tactics so far are to concentrate infantry firepower on them, especially when they deep strike in my lines. I've had Terminators assault unit after unit, crushing them as they try to flee. Helios is the ideal choice for Terminators, but you need to be close to be most effective.

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Old 01 Feb 2006, 18:03   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Elite Crisis Suit Weapons, Targetting Arrays and Twinlinking

Quote:
Originally Posted by daniel.wilson
Basically, the strengths of the Crisis suit are in it's ability to change out weapons to suit the enemy and it's mobility on the battlefield.
I would say it's strength is it's ability to fill multiple roles on the battlefield rather than change to suit the enemy. Though some people tailor their lists to their enemy, I find that tactic questionable, since it is relying on your ability to fight a specific enemy rather than building a list that can do well against any. That said I agree with the second part of that statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daniel.wilson
Cover makes Helios suits far less effective, and Helios suits are one of the most expensive suits available.
Which is why you should always factor these issues in when calculating fire efficiency. I created a spreadsheet that shows me the 'kill rate' against each armor value and save (including cover) for all the massed shooting troops in my army.
Quote:
Originally Posted by daniel.wilson
The goal is a Crisis suit config effective against Marines and weaker infantry, regardless of cover, and effective at a range that can prevent assault reliably against most opponents.
Your premise is fine, except you are placing to many expectations on a single configuration. Pinning isn't reliable, and neither is hoping the unit breaks, so the ONLY way to reliably prevent an assault is to wipe out the assaulting unit. For balance reasons you'll never see a long range weapon on a crisis suit that has a high yield, AP, or template (unless it's only 1 per army). So you're stuck, either take the long range/harrassment config, or the close fire support/firehose config.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daniel.wilson
Twin-linking is more effective than a Targeting Array. The Targeting Array will affect all weapons on the suit, however. Since the suits in question have only three slots, and no Multitrackers, the Targeting Array does not appear to be a viable option here, unless I'm using a single Twin-linked weapon with a Targeting Array.
I've recently done some cost/benefit analysis on twinlinking, and I've come to the conclusion that there are very few circumstances when twinlinking is cost effective. See the end of this post http://forums.tauonline.org/index.php?topic=15224.15 for a more detailed breakdown of the detriment of twinlinking. It's just not worth the cost, particularly on an HQ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daniel.wilson
The Flamer is quite the surprise. TonkaTruckDriver mentioned that the Flamer was cheap and effective, particularly against large masses of marines. The big problem I have with this weapon is the range. I fear assault more than anything.
Tonka's a pretty smart fella, and I completely agree with him in this case. Flamers provide, cheap, effective hits against almost every enemy, and is entirely unaffected by cover. Elite crisis with burst/flamer/multi as close fire support is one of the best ways to whittle down a squad that's in line for a next turn assault. If you're keeping them close to your firelines, chances are youre FWs can do the cleanup with Rapid fire. Then you get to jump out of the way again. With this setup, even if your opponent survives the turn, he/she will have far less (if anything) left with which to assault.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daniel.wilson
Since our Elite Crisis Suits have such poor assault performance, I'd like to remove any weapon with less than 12" of range from consideration. This gives us the range to shoot without being assaulted or rapid fired by the marine on foot. This leaves the Plasma Rifle, Burst Cannon, and the Missile Pod to work with.
Honestly, I believe this is a mistake on your part. I use elite crisis in sets of two, while it's primarily psychological, two suits doesn't seem like much of a threat, and most opponents I know would prefer to charge the FWs, rather than charging the crisis, risking a massacre and be left standing out in the open to another round of rapid fire shooting from a full squad of FWs. Just don't keep them so close that they can follow up into your FWs (or your suits) and use the turn to get yourself out of assault range. Keep in mind though, that there are other armies out there other than MEQ, and high AP weapons aren't as efficient against these types of armies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daniel.wilson
Plasma Rifles force Space Marines into cover, so having a Plasma Rifle in a squad could slow down a marine force on foot by making them do Difficult Terrain tests, and taking less direct routes.
I think that's a pretty big assumption. Unless I was toting an extraordinary number of twinlinked plasmas (all my crisis, all my HQs), most opponents I know wouldn't hide behind cover unless it was particularly advantageous (say out of LOS), rather they use their transports as they should to get as close to me as they can. But then if I were doing that, my crisis costs would go through the roof, meaning I would play more conservatively to keep them alive, and I would suffer more from the death of a crisis. To prevent assault, I'd rather go with cheap crisis that are much more expendable. I do however, often equip HQs with Fireknife config for long range utility/harrassment purposes. These guys I can pick and choose my shots, while using IC status to keep them alive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by daniel.wilson
The Missile Pod can do double duty as a weapon effective against light vehicles. The Missile Pod also has a massive range. And the BC/MP/MT config is very effective against weaker infantry.
Well, I'm surprised at the results, but the Burst Cannon, Missile Pod, Multitracker looks like the most effective combination for my Elites.
The missile pod is probably my favorite crisis weapon, and no matter what it always gets included on my HQ (no matter what my 2nd weapon is). Your assessment is good, but you might try reconsidering your thoughts on short range crisis weaponry for fear of assault. The plasma is great for ignoring saves out cover, but the flamer is startlingly more efficient.
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Old 01 Feb 2006, 18:27   #5 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Elite Crisis Suit Weapons, Targetting Arrays and Twinlinking

Im very tempted by the twin-linked plasma & targetting array suit, as i need a little anti marine work, and i always like to swing the numbers in my favour. Personally i feel that a unit of 2 of those will be very almost *guaranteed* to kills marine targets every time they fire.

I mean even with my bad luck its hard to screw up those 4 twin-linked BS3 plasma rolls. O0
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Old 01 Feb 2006, 18:50   #6 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Elite Crisis Suit Weapons, Targetting Arrays and Twinlinking

LeetMonkey said:
I would say it's strength is it's ability to fill multiple roles on the battlefield rather than change to suit the enemy. Though some people tailor their lists to their enemy, I find that tactic questionable, since it is relying on your ability to fight a specific enemy rather than building a list that can do well against any.


That's a good point, too. My Helios suits do a double-duty as Vehicle/Heavy Infantry killers. But I consider the Helios an Anti-Marine configuration. I was looking for a versatile config that can pop transports from a distance to free up the Railguns, while still being effective against infantry of all sorts.


======================

daniel.wilson said:
The goal is a Crisis suit config effective against Marines and weaker infantry, regardless of cover, and effective at a range that can prevent assault reliably against most opponents.

LeetMonkey replied:
Your premise is fine, except you are placing to many expectations on a single configuration. Pinning isn't reliable, and neither is hoping the unit breaks, so the ONLY way to reliably prevent an assault is to wipe out the assaulting unit. For balance reasons you'll never see a long range weapon on a crisis suit that has a high yield, AP, or template (unless it's only 1 per army). So you're stuck, either take the long range/harrassment config, or the close fire support/firehose config.


Well, I dunno. The BC/MP/MT config sounds like a long range/harassment style. Like I said, I'm hoping to destroy transports from the first turn, move into Burst Cannon range, and jump back to my lines, firing constantly. Probably the flank is the best position, then the enemy isn't advancing towards my suits, and into rapid fire range.

===============================

daniel.wilson said:
Twin-linking is more effective than a Targeting Array. The Targeting Array will affect all weapons on the suit, however. Since the suits in question have only three slots, and no Multitrackers, the Targeting Array does not appear to be a viable option here, unless I'm using a single Twin-linked weapon with a Targeting Array.

LeetMonkey replied:
I've recently done some cost/benefit analysis on twinlinking, and I've come to the conclusion that there are very few circumstances when twinlinking is cost effective. See the end of this post http://forums.tauonline.org/index.php?topic=15224.15 for a more detailed breakdown of the detriment of twinlinking. It's just not worth the cost, particularly on an HQ.


Yeah, you're right. The gain can be negligable for the cost. For the rank and file Crisis suits, I think it's a good option. For a 50% cost increase to the weapon, the suit hits 50% more, while the suits cost increases as a whole maybe 20%.

=====================================
LeetMonkey said:
Tonka's a pretty smart fella, and I completely agree with him in this case. Flamers provide, cheap, effective hits against almost every enemy, and is entirely unaffected by cover. Elite crisis with burst/flamer/multi as close fire support is one of the best ways to whittle down a squad that's in line for a next turn assault. If you're keeping them close to your firelines, chances are youre FWs can do the cleanup with Rapid fire. Then you get to jump out of the way again. With this setup, even if your opponent survives the turn, he/she will have far less (if anything) left with which to assault.


I'm too cowardly to try Flamer Crisis suits, myself. Martial armys like Farsight would probably benefit more from Flamers. Could make a good support unit for Kroot charges, too.

=================================
daniel.wilson said:
Plasma Rifles force Space Marines into cover, so having a Plasma Rifle in a squad could slow down a marine force on foot by making them do Difficult Terrain tests, and taking less direct routes.

LeetMonkey replied:
I think that's a pretty big assumption. Unless I was toting an extraordinary number of twinlinked plasmas (all my crisis, all my HQs), most opponents I know wouldn't hide behind cover unless it was particularly advantageous (say out of LOS), rather they use their transports as they should to get as close to me as they can. But then if I were doing that, my crisis costs would go through the roof, meaning I would play more conservatively to keep them alive, and I would suffer more from the death of a crisis. To prevent assault, I'd rather go with cheap crisis that are much more expendable. I do however, often equip HQs with Fireknife config for long range utility/harrassment purposes. These guys I can pick and choose my shots, while using IC status to keep them alive.


What I'm thinking is that cover will provide a measure of protection against Plasma weaponry, and that given a choice between taking a position in the open and taking a position behind cover, a player would be more likely to take the cover position for defense against plasma weapons. The main way I prevent assault is by destroying transports, leaving the enemy to slog forward under a storm pulse fire on foot. The best option would be advancing in LOS blocking area terrain for them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by coolflame616
Im very tempted by the twin-linked plasma & targetting array suit, as i need a little anti marine work, and i always like to swing the numbers in my favour. Personally i feel that a unit of 2 of those will be very almost *guaranteed* to kills marine targets every time they fire.

I mean even with my bad luck its hard to screw up those 4 twin-linked BS3 plasma rolls. O0

It isn't a bad setup. It is specializing your suits for Marine killing duty. My math says 2 Crisis suits with that config should kill 1.5 MEQs at 12-24" and 3 MEQs at up to 12".
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Old 01 Feb 2006, 19:45   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Elite Crisis Suit Weapons, Targetting Arrays and Twinlinking

Hi,

How about a config of Twin-Plamsa and Missile Pod, yep no multi-tracker.

You can still pop light vehicles at long range. You are only marginally worse than a normal fireknife and still better than helios at 24". Plus when it gets close you have the same kills as a helios at 12".

This config has proven useful to me. It main disadvantage is that it's not to good at non-MEQ, but then most Tau armies fo not have problems against non-MEQ armies with all the pulse weaponry we have.

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Old 01 Feb 2006, 20:02   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Elite Crisis Suit Weapons, Targetting Arrays and Twinlinking

Quote:
Originally Posted by daniel.wilson
But I consider the Helios an Anti-Marine configuration. I was looking for a versatile config that can pop transports from a distance to free up the Railguns, while still being effective against infantry of all sorts.
It is. It is also inefficient against horde armies. If you're looking for long range anti-transport, the only option you have (for a crisis) is the missile pod. As I said, I love the MP on HQ, since you are almost always guaranteed a hit or two. Though, early in the game (when it matters most) chances are that most of your units won't have much to shoot at, so anything with a ST5 gun COULD affect a transport (which is most of our army). Given no other possibilities (and no need to reposition) I'll often pop a tank with 30" range Pulse rifle shots (or SMS, etc.). Generally I find my opponents pop smoke on a transport the first turn they get the chance, which means I'll never to better than glancing anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by daniel.wilson
The BC/MP/MT config sounds like a long range/harassment style. Like I said, I'm hoping to destroy transports from the first turn, move into Burst Cannon range, and jump back to my lines, firing constantly. Probably the flank is the best position, then the enemy isn't advancing towards my suits, and into rapid fire range.
Part of the issue I see here is the large gap in effective ranges and stats of your two weapons. It's not a terrible config, but it tries to combine two completely dissimilar roles (long range/harrassment and anti-infantry) into a single crisis. I'd be more inclined to do a TL MP/Flamer for this, since you'll be better at both at about the same cost.

No smart marine player will ever try to run down a crisis, unless they are within guaranteed assault range, more likely they'll try to hit your primarly firebase. You might WANT to destroy transports first turn, which you should try to do, but to loadout every crisis for this purpose isn't a smart play, since after they're destroyed or unloaded, the real enemy (troops) are left to shrug off your low quantity of missile shots every turn (if we're talking marines).

Quote:
Originally Posted by daniel.wilson
Yeah, you're right. The gain can be negligable for the cost. For the rank and file Crisis suits, I think it's a good option. For a 50% cost increase to the weapon, the suit hits 50% more, while the suits cost increases as a whole maybe 20%.
Keep in mind the cost of twinlinking is MORE than just the TL upgrade. You are obligated to fill the third hardpoint, which is additional cost, which at it's cheapest is a Target Lock, which is often pointless. If you drop in another weapon, you reduce the value of the Twinlink, since you can only fire one weapon at a time, then you can hardware a multi, but then that's even more cost. Add it up and it becomes a much larger cost just to gain 1/2 your missed shots back (note, only hits, not wounds). Is all that it worth it for 1 MP hit shot every other turn, or 1 plasma shot every 2 turns, or .75 Burst cannon shots every turn. Not for me, since a portion of those regained shots will fail to wound and/or get saved anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daniel.wilson
I'm too cowardly to try Flamer Crisis suits, myself. Martial armys like Farsight would probably benefit more from Flamers. Could make a good support unit for Kroot charges, too.
I hate Kroot and I don't run a Farsight army, but I recently have come to love flamers on crisis. The first time you pop out from behind cover, light up a marine squad twice over, and pop back behind cover you'll be sold.
Quote:
Originally Posted by daniel.wilson
What I'm thinking is that cover will provide a measure of protection against Plasma weaponry, and that given a choice between taking a position in the open and taking a position behind cover, a player would be more likely to take the cover position for defense against plasma weapons. The main way I prevent assault is by destroying transports, leaving the enemy to slog forward under a storm pulse fire on foot. The best option would be advancing in LOS blocking area terrain for them.
If you don't have LOS to your enemy it doesn't matter what weapon you have. There's no way really, to guarantee destruction or immobilization of transports in turn 1, unless your opponenent has no skill or a lousy list. What I will say is that taking out transports early is important, but where it falls in the 'priority' target list is entirely dependent upon where it is, and what else is on the table. One benefit to more range (plasma and/or missile pod) is that it generally gives you more target options at the cost of kill efficiency. I've said this before, but generally I divide my crisis into two distinct roles, the HQ for long range harrassment and light tank hunting, and the vanilla elite for close support of my Firebase. If I NEED a transport to stop, I'll hit it with an Ionhead (unless it's a land raider of course), or a Shas'o with MP.

Each player has their own tactics, but you shouldn't be afraid to try something different, if anything just to keep your opponent guessing. You might be surprised by how effective other configs can be.
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Old 01 Feb 2006, 22:15   #9 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Elite Crisis Suit Weapons, Targetting Arrays and Twinlinking

Quote:
Originally Posted by l33t_m0nk3y
It is. It is also inefficient against horde armies. If you're looking for long range anti-transport, the only option you have (for a crisis) is the missile pod. As I said, I love the MP on HQ, since you are almost always guaranteed a hit or two. Though, early in the game (when it matters most) chances are that most of your units won't have much to shoot at, so anything with a ST5 gun COULD affect a transport (which is most of our army). Given no other possibilities (and no need to reposition) I'll often pop a tank with 30" range Pulse rifle shots (or SMS, etc.). Generally I find my opponents pop smoke on a transport the first turn they get the chance, which means I'll never to better than glancing anyway.
Actually, I was thinking the BC/MP/MT was more efficient against horde armies. With five shots that will penetrate light infantry armor, it looks like it will be effective against light and heavy infantry, plus light vehicles, all from 18" range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by l33t_m0nk3y
Part of the issue I see here is the large gap in effective ranges and stats of your two weapons. It's not a terrible config, but it tries to combine two completely dissimilar roles (long range/harrassment and anti-infantry) into a single crisis. I'd be more inclined to do a TL MP/Flamer for this, since you'll be better at both at about the same cost.
Well, yes, there is a range gap. But if I'm firing at transports in the first turn or two, that's not an issue. I figure by turn 2 or 3, I can be within burst cannon range, and I can start hitting the infantry flanks, and do so effectively. I've tried the TL MP config before, but the low volume of fire made it seem ineffective, compared to plasma weapons. Like I said, I'm looking for an effective suit config for 12-18" range, usable against infantry of all sorts. There are specialized configs that can do Heavy Infantry or Light Infantry better, but nothing at this range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by l33t_m0nk3y
No smart marine player will ever try to run down a crisis, unless they are within guaranteed assault range, more likely they'll try to hit your primarly firebase. You might WANT to destroy transports first turn, which you should try to do, but to loadout every crisis for this purpose isn't a smart play, since after they're destroyed or unloaded, the real enemy (troops) are left to shrug off your low quantity of missile shots every turn (if we're talking marines).
Definitely. Crisis suits are too fast for a foot soldier to chase. But I have run into situations where I was using Difficult Terrain tests for my Crisis suits to prevent Dangerous Terrain checks, and have been run down by Marines that rolled far better. I just want I little more space than what a Helios needs. I don't think I'll change every suit I have to BC/MP/MT, but I'd like to try a squad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by l33t_m0nk3y
Keep in mind the cost of twinlinking is MORE than just the TL upgrade. You are obligated to fill the third hardpoint, which is additional cost, which at it's cheapest is a Target Lock, which is often pointless. If you drop in another weapon, you reduce the value of the Twinlink, since you can only fire one weapon at a time, then you can hardware a multi, but then that's even more cost. Add it up and it becomes a much larger cost just to gain 1/2 your missed shots back (note, only hits, not wounds). Is all that it worth it for 1 MP hit shot every other turn, or 1 plasma shot every 2 turns, or .75 Burst cannon shots every turn. Not for me, since a portion of those regained shots will fail to wound and/or get saved anyway.
Yeah, I'll usually take a Fusion Blaster for the third slot in case of Dreadnought or Land Raider. But the Twinlinking increases casualties at the same ratio it increases hits. A Burst Cannon, BS 3, is 3 shots, hitting for 1.5, getting 1 wound, saved for .333 kills MEQ. TL Burst is 3 shots, hitting for 2, getting 1.33 wounds, saved for .5 kills MEQ, 50% more than the non-twinlinked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by l33t_m0nk3y
I hate Kroot and I don't run a Farsight army, but I recently have come to love flamers on crisis. The first time you pop out from behind cover, light up a marine squad twice over, and pop back behind cover you'll be sold.
Well, I'll have to give it a try. Like I said, I'm cowardly. The Flamer is most effective on a large, tightly packed squad, and such a squad is still going to have enough firepower to lay the hurt on Crisis suits. Against 5+ armor, I imagine it's effects are extreme!

Thanks for the comments
daniel.wilson is offline  
Old 01 Feb 2006, 23:13   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Elite Crisis Suit Weapons, Targetting Arrays and Twinlinking

Quote:
Originally Posted by daniel.wilson
Actually, I was thinking the BC/MP/MT was more efficient against horde armies. With five shots that will penetrate light infantry armor, it looks like it will be effective against light and heavy infantry, plus light vehicles, all from 18" range.
I meant that it is less efficient than other configs against horde armies, not itself. It's not terribly effective against heavy infantry, just because it's only 5 shots, 1/2 of which you'll miss, more than 1/2 of which will be saved. Light infantry will definitely suffer though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daniel.wilson
Well, yes, there is a range gap. But if I'm firing at transports in the first turn or two, that's not an issue. I figure by turn 2 or 3, I can be within burst cannon range, and I can start hitting the infantry flanks, and do so effectively. I've tried the TL MP config before, but the low volume of fire made it seem ineffective, compared to plasma weapons. Like I said, I'm looking for an effective suit config for 12-18" range, usable against infantry of all sorts. There are specialized configs that can do Heavy Infantry or Light Infantry better, but nothing at this range.
I don't twinlink. Rather, I put the imortant, long range shots on HQs to improve their shot success, this way, the HQs are consistently in a harrassment role throughout the game. If you want to be lethal in the 12-18" range that is best left to stealths and firewarriors who put out many more shots/cost. Too many crisis in a 'catchall' kind of config just means that they're not as efficient as they could be with each role they play. Of course you have your own playstyle, and army setup, so it might work well for you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by daniel.wilson
Definitely. Crisis suits are too fast for a foot soldier to chase. But I have run into situations where I was using Difficult Terrain tests for my Crisis suits to prevent Dangerous Terrain checks, and have been run down by Marines that rolled far better. I just want I little more space than what a Helios needs. I don't think I'll change every suit I have to BC/MP/MT, but I'd like to try a squad.
I've had this problem too, but usually, it's bad planning on my part that led me to this situation. Give it a try, the worst you can say is 'well, that didn't work'. I don't really favor the FB on a crisis, since it's pricy and has a low shot amount and needs you to be within 6" of a tank to really shine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daniel.wilson
Yeah, I'll usually take a Fusion Blaster for the third slot in case of Dreadnought or Land Raider. But the Twinlinking increases casualties at the same ratio it increases hits. A Burst Cannon, BS 3, is 3 shots, hitting for 1.5, getting 1 wound, saved for .333 kills MEQ. TL Burst is 3 shots, hitting for 2, getting 1.33 wounds, saved for .5 kills MEQ, 50% more than the non-twinlinked.
Burst cannons are the best twinlinking value, primarily because they are so cheap to begin with. That said, I still don't use them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by daniel.wilson
Well, I'll have to give it a try. Like I said, I'm cowardly. The Flamer is most effective on a large, tightly packed squad, and such a squad is still going to have enough firepower to lay the hurt on Crisis suits. Against 5+ armor, I imagine it's effects are extreme!
Flamers are effective against any troop. With your 6" unrestricted movement you can almost always get good position on a squad. Since they autohit, you don't have to worry about missing, and cover does not change their effectiveness. On average you need to cover only 5 marines to get roughly the same killing power as a plasma rifle within 12", if they're in cover you only need 3. Just think about how much better it performs against non MEQ.
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