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Being realistic about the new codex
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Old 27 Jan 2006, 16:52   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Being realistic about the new codex

We've all heard the rumors, and we all have a "favorite" new unit that we're excited about. A quick look around any 40k forum on the net will reveal excitement about nearly every new addition. However, a lot of us are being entirely too unrealistic about what's coming in the next month or two. Let's look at things objectively here.

We're still going to need the same number of Railguns to deal with heavy vehicles. We're still going to need the same amount of AP 2/1 to deal with 2+ saves. We're still going to need the same amount of S 7/8 to deal with light vehicles. And we're still going to need the same amount of pulse fire to deal with hordes. None of these requirements have changed.

Now the interesting thing is that a large quantity of the major changes/additions to the new codex don't fall into any of these "necessary" categories. Markerlights, Vespids, Sniper Teams, Skyrays, and every single one of the new Commander Upgrades are entirely superfluous. Sure, many of them are cool, and some are quite handy at handling certain threats, but if we're really truly honest with ourselves, they're not necessary. And more to the point, any points spent on these things means less points (and fewer force org slots) spent on the things that are necessary. Furthermore, many of the unit choices that might otherwise have been candidates for being "given up" to free points for some new goodies have received improvements of their own. Kroot, Kroot Hounds, Gun Drones, and Firewarriors have all been given subtle (and some not-so-subtle) improvements which make them even more difficult to justify leaving behind.

Lets say you're fond of Sniper Teams. You decide to spend a Heavy slot to bring 3 of 'em. You've now got a solid beginning to an anti-Meq firebase. I won't go so far as to say you've got a "good" anti-Meq firebase since your 3 Sniper teams are only going to account for 4.4 dead marines a turn assuming they all have LoS and range... but it's a solid beginning. In any case, since you've spent a Heavy slots (and 240 points) to buy these Sniper Teams, you necessarily only have two Heavy slots remaining in which to buy Railguns. Not so hot. There are always tradeoffs. Where'd you get those 240 points? What're you going to do for killing heavy vehicles? You can buy a bunch of Broadsides in your remaining heavy slots and try to get a bit more anti-heavy vehicle firepower from your Elites, but the fact remains that you're still not going to perform as well against heavy vehicles as an army with all 3 of it's Heavy slots occupied by Railguns. Not to mention that your Heavy Support section is weighing in at ~750 pts now... not so good for comp.

You can do a similar thought experiment for any of the new list choices. Vespids are neat, but expensive... and really require Markerlight support to shine. Where are you going to get the points for those Vespids and those Markerlights? They've gotta come from somewhere. And what if you're facing IG? So I challenge each of you to sit down and actually think about each of these new options and what you're having to give up to include it in your list. Then think about whether or not what you've included is actually better than what you've given up in the context of your list as a whole. Just because something's new doesn't make it better.
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Old 27 Jan 2006, 17:09   #2 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Being realistic about the new codex


But you now mentioned the exact reason why I'm probably (in time) going to buy some of these ...
I look at some army's and only see the part where you want to win, sure it's fun and most army's try to do this. My army is something different, I take Kroot, don't take HH, take Broadsides ... I'm going to use Vespid and the new Commander gun, maybe some Pirhana's and Sniper drones.

It's disappointing to hear someone say at your store: "Ooow, so that are Kroot, never saw them painted and fighting before" (OK at my store it's in dutch but ...)
I take them because no-one does (or almost no-one). Sure my army doesn't win that often and I get mostly draws but hey I'm having a great time ... If only it's because I saw my own Kroot being shot except one and then running away ;D

But your wright if you look at it from the competitive side, but that's in every army, there's always a trade-off.

Greetz
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Old 27 Jan 2006, 17:14   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Being realistic about the new codex

You make some interesting points. I for one am not going to change my tactics or army build much when the new codex comes out, I am however going to get these new units and take them for a spin if for no other reason than to test them out. They may not be part of the necessary basics for an army but I am sure they will be a very nice way to add some support to your forces and get into some more complex tactics.
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Old 27 Jan 2006, 17:23   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Being realistic about the new codex

For me it is like this:

I have an army. It does things well. But if the cyclonic Ionic blaster is whatever it is suppoesed to do, I might add it to my Helios team. I will probably get my Broadsides the ASS, but it really all depends on when I get the Codex.
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Old 27 Jan 2006, 17:44   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Being realistic about the new codex

Lets not be too negative here - you've overcosted the sniper teams by a fair bit for one (least 100 points I think) and forgotten they take slots like IG heavy weapon platoons. A few pirhanas with fusion blasters in an FA slot is also going to lessen the pressure for anti tank stuff, meaning that you don't have to have the 2 hammerheads etc.

To me that is the most exciting thing, that the old requirements and slot competition is no longer as fierce, it means there is now quite a few different types of army style that can be experimented with.
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Old 27 Jan 2006, 17:47   #6 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Being realistic about the new codex

What's this Cyclonic Ion Blaster? I haven't read anything about it.

I have to agree. Fire Warriors are still going to be the core of the army, as they should. Railguns are still going to be the big long range anti-vehicle weapon. Tactics shouldn't drastically change in the new Codex. We just have a few more options open now.
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Old 27 Jan 2006, 17:49   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Being realistic about the new codex

The cyclonic Ion blaster is rumoured to be an assault 5 weapon available to commanders only. I think it was also rumoured to have str 3 and ap - counting as AP 1 with a roll of 6 or something. Check the rumours boards.
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Old 27 Jan 2006, 17:51   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Being realistic about the new codex

5 Shot, low Strength weapon with the ranger long rifle rules (mini rending, 6s to hit = no save). Both the two special issue weapons are anti-horde things. Though this does actually do quite well against marines given its in the hands of a BS5 Shas'o. Think it actually works out to be just as effective as a plasma rifle at short range but works the same at the rifles full range as well (maybe an extra 6" too) - its not bad against MEQs and really quite good against sisters and suchlike with the lower Toughness
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Old 27 Jan 2006, 17:57   #9 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Being realistic about the new codex

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vash113
The cyclonic Ion blaster is rumoured to be an assault 5 weapon available to commanders only. I think it was also rumoured to have str 3 and ap - counting as AP 1 with a roll of 6 or something. Check the rumours boards.
Hmmm. Well, depending on the range, it could be a nice marine killer. Let's see, umm, 5 hits * 5/6 to hit * 1/3 to wound with no armor save means about 25/18ths wounds per turn on a Shas'O. Compared to 1 hit * 5/6 to hit * 5/6 to wound with no armor save for a long range plasma is 25/36, doubled for 25/18ths for rapid firing plasma rifle. So it's equal in killing performance to a rapid firing plasma rifle? I guess range and cost are important variables for deciding on it. It would be a killer weapon for swarms, though, with 5 Str 3 shots.

Anybody know the range?
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Old 27 Jan 2006, 18:27   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Being realistic about the new codex

Quote:
Originally Posted by daniel.wilson
What's this Cyclonic Ion Blaster? I haven't read anything about it.
And... I can't tell you about it on TO. Go to any other forum on the internet and ask. You'll get a good answer there

Quote:
Originally Posted by daniel.wilson
Fire Warriors are still going to be the core of the army, as they should.
Or Stealths and Kroot, depending on how you play


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tastyfish
Lets not be too negative here - you've overcosted the sniper teams by a fair bit for one (least 100 points I think) and forgotten they take slots like IG heavy weapon platoons.
No, I haven't. I said you can buy 6 Sniper teams in 2 HS slots. Sniper teams are expensive... 6 of them will weigh in at close to 500 pts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tastyfish
A few pirhanas with fusion blasters in an FA slot is also going to lessen the pressure for anti tank stuff, meaning that you don't have to have the 2 hammerheads etc.
Like I said earlier, you can do some fussing and fidgeting to get some anti heavy-vehicle shooting in other slots, but Fusion Blasters will never be as good as Railguns. The platforms they're mounted on are more fragile and you need to get close to use them... not a good combination. And you still haven't gotten around the fact that you've spent close to 500 points on Snipers that will do you exactly no good against Eldar, Dark Eldar, Nids, Orks, or Deathwing. AP3 isn't necessary. Pulse fire is. And close to 500 pts of Snipers will reduce your available pulse fire by a lot.

But the nail in the coffin for me is that Snipers can't be scoring units. I have a hard enough time as it is justifying spending 200 pts on non-scoring Devilfish...
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