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Need help against Chaos + why are my Kroot always wasted?
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Old 16 Jan 2006, 03:21   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Need help against Chaos + why are my Kroot always wasted?

Alright, a friend of mine plays chaos space marines and has been very succesful in our gaming group (well undefeated). I played him at 1200 pts today using everything I had and still lost by 224 VP in a take and hold scenerio. Here is what happened in a nut shell:

My army:

HQ: Shas'el with FB, PR, MT
HQ: Shas'el with FB, PR, MT
Elite: fire knife crisis suit
Elite: fire knife crisis suit
Elite: 6 stealthsuits with team leader and two gun drones (infiltrating)
Troop: 12 Fire warriors with pulse rifes (bonded)
Troop: 12 Fire warriors with pulse rifes (bonded)
Troop: 12 Kroot (infiltrating)
Fast Attack : 8 gun drones
Fast Attack: 6 pathfinders (2 with rail rifles) + devilfish with 4 seekers missiles, disruption pod, decoy launcher, targetting array

That is presently all I have in my army. I am going for a hybrid army in the future, anyone may make suggestions for my next purchase...but it will most likely be a hammerhead.

Chaos Space Marines (roughly):
full havoc squad (infiltrators)
full heavy bolter squad (infiltrators)
two full close combat squads (one with general) (infiltrators)
Another close combat squard mounted in a rhyno

Alright here is main problem right off the bat: his entire army basically infiltrates. He also has used in the past a dreadnaught (he stopped taking it because of my missile pods), a deamon prince with demonic speed (left it home today...thankfully), and a massive possessed squad mounted in the rhyno (which makes even terminators cry).

I set up my fire warriors in two buildings about 14 in. apart, which are about 15 inches from the centre of the table. Toward me is a large piece of impassable terrain, this means neither squad can hit the same target coming form behind the terrain. my kroot are infiltrated in the adjacent building to the firewarriors on the left. my gun drones set up behind the kroot, along with the devilfish. My pathfinders set up behind the firewarriors on the right. His havoc squad infiltrates ontop of a height 3 terrain on the far right that overlooks the entire table (only way to hide from them is directly behind cover). I infiltrate my stealth suits 12 inches away from the havoc squad behind cover to deal with them. One HQ and elite was set up to support the fire warriors on the left, and the other HQ and elite to support the fire warriors on the right.

He sets up the havoc squad on the far left. Once close combat squad behind a building that is opposite the kroot (approx 12 inches away, but can't see eachother through building) He sets up the heavy bolter squad in cover across from the fire warriors on the right (approx 30 inches away). He infiltrates the other close combat squad close behind the impassible terrain in the middle (no one can see them). The rhyno is set up between buildings on his side, that my crisis suits could possibly see.

Turn 1: He rolls and gets first (I hide my feelings of anguish)
Havoc squad kills one crisis suit. Squad across from the Kroot moves, shoots and attempts to charge failing by one inch (kills one kroot). Infiltrators behind impassible terrain move forward. Heavy Bolter squad fails to kill anything and stays still. Rhyno moves into the centre of the table and pops smoke.

My stealthsuits pop out and kill SEVEN havoc squad members leaving only one left. (he is in disbelief...I have never seen so many 1's and 2's rolled in my life on armour). My kroot rapid fire and kill 0 space marines. I don't bother with the rhyno, since the smoke makes everything glancing. Crisis suits on the left kill 2-3 of the marines approaching kroot. My pathfinders are stuck with no targets (I set them up poorly because they couldn't dry line of suit to havoc sqaud due to terrain and were too deep to see out what they were in...my bad). Crisis suits on the right kill one space marine from squad approaching behind terrain. Firewarriors I think kill another marine or two from the left squad and another on the right (from the right squad. Drones move forward...still not in range of anything.

Turn two:
Space marines SLAUGHTER the kroot using flamers. Rhyno moves several inches and then the marines jump out and assault firewarriors on the left (he rolled well for difficult terrain). He kills alot of fire warriors (they fall back and are caught = dead). Havoc guy does nothing. Heavy bolter squad and regular marines (closing in from behind impassiable terrain) kill 4 firewarriors on the right (pass ld).

Stealthsuits take care of final havoc guy. I kill 3 marines with my HQ on the left and shoot and assault with the drones to hopefully get HQ far enough away to avoid assault; while marines held for a turn by the drones. I lose two drones and he loses one marine, the bloody drones fail their Ld. 7 and fall back. Marines consolodate 6 inches (my HQ is now basically dead) I kill another 2 marines from the squad approaching on the right between the fire warriors and other suits (from this point on he rolled VERY well on armour saves).

Turn 3: He kills my HQ on the left. He kills two more firewarrios from the remaining squad. The stealth suits who were trying to rush over to protect the remaining pocket lose two drones. Basically, he advances: but still too far away to assault.

I unload with everything I have: The original squad that had mutilated the firewarriors now has only four guys left between rail rifles, seeker missiles. The other marines assaulting from the front only have 1 guy left between stealthsuits and remaining firewarriors unloading.

(At this point he has 3 space marines and the general approaching on the left. The full squad of marines that had killed the kroot has moved to within 14 inches of squads. The squad coming from behind the impassible terrain is only one man. The Heavy Bolter squad is finally moving towards the centre after slowly killing firewarriors on the right. Everything I have is hiding in one piece of area terrain: 5 stealth suits [one died somewhere along the way] 6 pathfinders [two with rail rifles], 7 fire warriors, and one HQ crisis suit.)

I am basically doomed when he tank shocks me with the rhyno causing the pathfinders to run out of cover and causing the HQ to run off the table (which was REALLY annoying because with the fusion blaster I could have death or gloried the thing; but the stealth suits stuck) After lots of shooting all I had left were the 5 stealth suits who made it to withing 12 inches of the centre. He had the full scoring heavy bolter squad in scoring. His general was alive, as was a depleted squad (the one that had killed the kroot) I lost by something like 229 pts.


Alright, sorry for the abridged version; but my brain is turning to mush...if anyone has questions just let me know. Basically, I would really like to know how to use my kroot so they don't get slaughtered. In shooting they do nothing. In close combat they strike after marines; and if I try to get I 10 in cover the flamers kill me. What do I do with them? Also, how important is cover? I ask this because I find hugging cover severaly hampers me...thus why my pathfinders were useless for two turns. Do you have any suggestions on how to fight an army that almost entirely infiltrates? What would you recommend I focus on purchasing next (for my hybrid army)? Do you see any other flaws in my play? (I know I am using the kroot wrong, and I should have planned ahead in moving the left HQ away from danger; thus not trusting a last ditch drone assault which didn't work. Plus the pathfinders were placed poorly)

Any advice, criticisms, words of wisdom would be appreciated. (my opponenet mostly commended my play and was quite impressed...besides the whole kroot thing)

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Old 16 Jan 2006, 03:54   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Need help against Chaos + why are my Kroot always wasted?

Tough, i am new to the hobby, let me tell you something i've been reading for quite a while now

1)kroot are cheap meat (aka dispensable troops)
only good if used en-masse to actualy kill something AND they are NOT assault troops, just terrain holders or baits

2)pathfinders need to be in the open (remember, they are scouts, the vanguard of the army) not in the middle of the army with 2 buildings blocking its los if you want to get the pathfinders to work like wonders (well, just dont wait for miracles) have 2 teams 1 with markerlights and the other with railrifles and they can work just fine

3)Use your stealth suits to jsj anything that gets within assault range of your army, crisis suits aswell

And if you want to go with the Hammerhead, then go, it can be used as a devilfish (read [mace]'s signature) and the ioncannon can kill heavy troops prety easy
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Old 16 Jan 2006, 12:37   #3 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Need help against Chaos + why are my Kroot always wasted?

Looking at your army as it is now I think you'll need many more modles.

First off do not count on the kroot to be anything more than a speed bump agaist most armies Hth troops , even with a good WS and S they do not have any staying power ( 6+ save at best ) . The general thought on kroot are to take a squad or two of ten kroot with no upgrades get them in to cover and sit , shoot , and assualt only to protect more valuable units.

Second : Get some Heavy support , Hammerheads are very easy to tailor to a known enemy . I prefer Broadsides but thats because my luck with a Hammerhead is horrible ( 1 tank kill in ten games). The hammerhead is the best bang for your buck though . You can make it modular and use it armed with Rail Cannon ,Ion Cannon , as a Sky Ray or a Devilfish APC . Not to mention the defensive weapons choices of 2 Burst Cannons or Smart Missile System , with Gun Drones and even Seeker missiles.

Third : You may want to drop the second Shas 'el and get some more crisis suits. I prefer the fireknife set up , but use what ever works well for you. With the current codex do not be tempted to use bodyguards its much better to keep your IC status and be near ( 6 inches or less ) another squad . This may change in the next codex but will have to wait and see.

Finally play as often as you can . The Tau take time to learn how to play well and your most likely to lose alot of games until you develop tacits that work well for you.
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Old 16 Jan 2006, 12:37   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Need help against Chaos + why are my Kroot always wasted?

Quote:
I set up my fire warriors in two buildings about 14 in. apart, which are about 15 inches from the centre of the table. Toward me is a large piece of impassable terrain, this means neither squad can hit the same target coming form behind the terrain.
Here's probably your first mistake. Fire Warriors are kinda useless against marines and need to focus fire to get anything done. I appreciate that you spread out to keep his infiltration down to a minimum, but this is the kind of matchup where everything you have needs to be in a tight little ball to kill whatever comes close.

Quote:
My kroot rapid fire and kill 0 space marines.
=/ I guess they gave their kills to the stealth team! A full team of 20 kroot rapid-firing should kill 3-4 marines. Though you later say there were flamers in this team, so you should definitely have charged instead. That's one of the few times I recommend charging with kroot.

Quote:
I don't bother with the rhyno, since the smoke makes everything glancing.
Should have done it anyway, half of your possible glancing results would be good (3= stunned, 5= immobilized, 6= dead.)

Quote:
Marines consolodate 6 inches
Impossible, you only get 3" consolidation if the squad runs, not D6 sweeping advance movement.

Terrible morale rolls... not your fault obviously...

Still a 200 point loss is not that bad. Is your kroot squad 10 or 20? If 10, you should try a 20. It feels a lot different. It is tougher to make them run with shooting, and they can cause more damage than a fire warrior squad on average.

I am not entirely sure of the wisdom of taking pathfinders in this list. What the heck would they mark for? I guess the two fireknives... you get two markerlight hits on average so it might just work out. Even then, though, the lights only work on one weapon system so that's not a great usage... I guess it can help ensure the right kind of firepower against a tough target.

Why do you have no heavy support?
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Old 16 Jan 2006, 12:53   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Need help against Chaos + why are my Kroot always wasted?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint
Looking at your army as it is now I think you'll need many more modles.

First off do not count on the kroot to be anything more than a speed bump agaist most armies Hth troops , even with a good WS and S they do not have any staying power ( 6+ save at best ) . The general thought on kroot are to take a squad or two of ten kroot with no upgrades get them in to cover and sit , shoot , and assualt only to protect more valuable units.
Yes that's the way to go with kroots. always remember that nothing in the Tau army is expendable.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint
Second : Get some Heavy support , Hammerheads are very easy to tailor to a known enemy . I prefer Broadsides but thats because my luck with a Hammerhead is horrible ( 1 tank kill in ten games). The hammerhead is the best bang for your buck though . You can make it modular and use it armed with Rail Cannon ,Ion Cannon , as a Sky Ray or a Devilfish APC . Not to mention the defensive weapons choices of 2 Burst Cannons or Smart Missile System , with Gun Drones and even Seeker missiles.
Hammerheads are better if you like to be more mobile. They can move and shoot while a broadside needs to be stationary to shoot its weapons.

but, I'll say that you take at least one Railhead and one Ion head in your army. Put the burst cannon if you want something cheap, but the SMS is always a better choice on your tanks.

If you want to put the burst cannon on your tank, I say put it on a Ion head. That will make the Ionhead the tau equivalent of a Land raider Crusader.

Seeker missiles are definately a good choice to put on your Hammerheads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint
Third : You may want to drop the second Shas 'el and get some more crisis suits. I prefer the fireknife set up , but use what ever works well for you. With the current codex do not be tempted to use bodyguards its much better to keep your IC status and be near ( 6 inches or less ) another squad . This may change in the next codex but will have to wait and see.

Finally play as often as you can . The Tau take time to learn how to play well and your most likely to lose alot of games until you develop tacits that work well for you.
So true on the Shas'el part, use more crisis suits.

Do not ever use bodyguards on a commander unless there is a limit on your army elite slot(in which your army list don't have a limit)

Wait for the new codex and see what happens before you try to improve your force. Play more so thsat you won't be alienated by the rules and such. In time you'll be a good Tau player. Tau ain't the easiest army to master, but once you get the hang of it you'll be almost unstoppable
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Old 16 Jan 2006, 13:08   #6 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Need help against Chaos + why are my Kroot always wasted?

Something for you to look at may be a denied or refused flank maneuver ???. Simply put this is when you refuse the opportunity to place any units on one of your flanks. The idea is that you gain local fire superiority on one side, so you have a turn or two, to pound half of his force with all of yours, while his units on the empty side walk over to the battle.

The way you pull this off, is by placing all of your mobile assets on one side, then on your first turn, move them all towards the other side of the board. Because he is relying on infiltration for movement you can outrun him. Also the pathfinders get their pre-move to kick things off.


Another thing I noticed is the Kroot, they are your best counter assault unit, put them behind the fire-warriors; so the shas’la and their 4+ armor take the flamer death and initial assault ^-^. You may lose a few shots this way, but you are better off losing shots and keeping the unit alive for an extra turn. Also 12 kroot on the charge = 36 attacks, 18 hits, 9 wounds, and 1.5 dead meq. Much better than 12 dead kroot. Also you would have gotten to rapid fire the pulse rifles 2 more dead meq.
*if your shas'la were more mobile, ie fish, then the kroot are better off as an infiltrating pillbox unit. But because you have those 2 squads of slogers it is ok to pretend that your kroot are a counterassault unit.


As for the suit set-up; I was taking ‘el, tl PR, FB, hwMT + 2 ‘vre similarly equipped to deal with assault troops, but those guys don’t stand up to assault real well. So I switched to; ‘O with, PR, FB, SG, hwMT and 1 ‘vre with, tl PR, FB, hwMT, and a unit of six gun drones. These guys kill 5 or 6 meq per turn >, and if you box the suits in with the drones, and take flamer casualties from the back the O’ will survive the charge and kill .44 meq per turn after that. The team weighs in at 291 points; my short hand for them is “shield forge”


A Torgoch (‘el with, tl MP, PR, hwMT at 97 points) is a very efficient way to take out AV 12. If you have a few more points 2 deathrain suits are not as efficient but have a better chance I think, haven’t done those numbers in a while…. Let me look them up

Here it is; torgoch has a 62% chance to glance av12 <24", and a 91% ctg AV 11 at <24"
While 2 deathrains will glance AV 12 68% of the time and Av 11 at 84%. they lose a few % points but they gain some range. Although i think the torgoch is more usefull after the transports are dead.


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Old 16 Jan 2006, 13:09   #7 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Need help against Chaos + why are my Kroot always wasted?

Well I only have the twelve Kroot, which I guess is part of the problem. I should probably either take the full twenty, or just a mere ten. I think I will other use them to back-up firewarriors in a counter-charge / fire support position; or set them with the gun drones supporting. I can either combine charge with drones, or use the drones to hold up while the kroot repostion. (is this a terrible idea?)

Actually the reason why I am stubborn on taking the pathfinders is because I have no heavy support. It was actually sort of the results of christmas gifts and my own focus...obvisouly I will have to get a hammerhead or broadside next go. But presently the pathfinders with railrifles (to kill marines) and the rest with markerlights/seeker missiles (to kill tanks, marines, transports) seem hard not to take. And I have destroyled lemun russ tanks with seeker missiles by positioning the devilfish off to the side to ensure I hit side armour. Basically, he will always have to expose side armour to either missile pods or seeker missiles...but as I said this is a stop-cap measure until I get a heavy support (well...not a krootox obviously).

Here's my question, so let's say I bunch all the firewarriors into a small area against marine players to maximize fire power. EVERY marine will focus on my position and over-run me. Is it really possible for me to shoot-up most of the marines before they reach me (especially when they show up 18 inches away and can use terrain cover to get to me)?

Alright, I suppose when the rhyno pops smoke I shall take it on anyways, and see if I can get the bloody thing to stay put. (does crew stunned or shaken mean the guys inside can't dismount?)

Sorry, I should have mentioned that he overran the fire warriors...but then again, it is just 3 in. isn't it?

I usually stick with fire knife as well, and the fusion/plasma HQ's were an experiment against this particular army which worked out well. They start off so close that I get more bang for my buck out of the fusion than missile pods. I still have the elites with missile pods to take out any light vehichles.

I guess the reason I am so stumped is because against my friends Guard Army or another Sisters of Battle army I don't have too many problems. I just fear that when I tackle more space marine armies that I will be crushed. (of course I will not be entering any tournaments without a hammerhead or two)
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Old 16 Jan 2006, 14:36   #8 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Need help against Chaos + why are my Kroot always wasted?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty
That is presently all I have in my army. I am going for a hybrid army in the future, anyone may make suggestions for my next purchase...but it will most likely be a hammerhead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty

Alright here is main problem right off the bat: his entire army basically infiltrates.
Infiltration is one shot movement, wher as tau can move every turn twice per turn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty
my kroot are infiltrated in the adjacent building to the firewarriors on the left. my gun drones set up behind the kroot, along with the devilfish. My pathfinders set up behind the firewarriors on the right.
Are your pathfinders really on the opposite side of the board from their fish? or did i read this wrong? ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty
I infiltrate my stealth suits 12 inches away from the havoc squad behind cover to deal with them.
Good move


Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty
I don't bother with the rhyno, since the smoke makes everything glancing.
You must flat foot him. Rhino is top priority. Having said that your reasoning was sound, you seem to have a good understanding of the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty
Turn two:
Space marines SLAUGHTER the kroot using flamers. Rhyno moves several inches and then the marines jump out and assault firewarriors on the left (he rolled well for difficult terrain).
Cannot jump out of a rhino that has moved, and charge in the same turn. That is called a Rhino rush, and it died with 3rd edition. See page 266 of the rule book, top left hand corner under embarking and disembarking. Also page 62 just above the picture of the rhino.
I played a 3rd ed guy last night and he started with that kind of thing, I wouldn't have been mad, except he introdused himself as a tournement player and 40k master. BS, his list was at least 200 points over and he kept insisting that his heavy bolters and assault cannons got to re-roll all misses, ARGGG > all right, i'm better now, thanks for listening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty
Stealthsuits take care of final havoc guy. I kill 3 marines with my HQ on the left and shoot and assault with the drones to hopefully get HQ far enough away to avoid assault; while marines held for a turn by the drones. I lose two drones and he loses one marine, the bloody drones fail their Ld. 7 and fall back. Marines consolodate 6 inches (my HQ is now basically dead)
You only get to consolodate d6" on a massacre result. If the drones rolled higher than him on the sweeping advance, and escaped, then he only gets normal 3" consolodation move. p 43 and 44.
The rule of thumb with combat is "hold on your turn and run on his." This way you deny him movement and shooting during his turn, and allow yourself the option of rapid fire and assault on your turn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty
Turn 3: He kills my HQ on the left. He kills two more firewarrios from the remaining squad. The stealth suits who were trying to rush over to protect the remaining pocket lose two drones. Basically, he advances: but still too far away to assault.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty
I unload with everything I have: The original squad that had mutilated the firewarriors now has only four guys left between rail rifles, seeker missiles. The other marines assaulting from the front only have 1 guy left between stealthsuits and remaining firewarriors unloading.
Good job, this is just how you want things to be towards turn 4 or 5. You have knocked most of his scoring units below half, all you must do know is to keep a few of your scoring units intact. Always remember the objective. Killing his army is secondary to scoring units and victory points, this is what makes Tau a viable army. Not our ability to destroy whole units, rather our ability to put the correct volume of fire power where it is needed, ie to bring scoring units below half.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty
(At this point he has 3 space marines and the general approaching on the left. The full squad of marines that had killed the kroot has moved to within 14 inches of squads. The squad coming from behind the impassible terrain is only one man. The Heavy Bolter squad is finally moving towards the centre after slowly killing firewarriors on the right. Everything I have is hiding in one piece of area terrain: 5 stealth suits [one died somewhere along the way] 6 pathfinders [two with rail rifles], 7 fire warriors, and one HQ crisis suit.)
Looks like he has 2 scoring units and you have 3. the firewarriors are pretty much out of it, so their only job is to bring an enemy below half. Put the pathfinders in their fish and head towards the center, along with the XV-15's. Ohh, is the fish dead? i missed that, anyway hindsite will prepare you for next time, the pathfinders and fish are a great scoring unit, its better to have them around at the end than to get a few extra shots off during the game, be conservative with them and their fish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty
I am basically doomed when he tank shocks me with the rhyno causing the pathfinders to run out of cover and causing the HQ to run off the table (which was REALLY annoying because with the fusion blaster I could have death or gloried the thing;
Why didn't you?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty
but the stealth suits stuck) After lots of shooting all I had left were the 5 stealth suits who made it to withing 12 inches of the centre. He had the full scoring heavy bolter squad in scoring. His general was alive, as was a depleted squad (the one that had killed the kroot) I lost by something like 229 pts.
Never feel like you are losing just because your guys are all dying. :'( 40k is a game, near the end when your tired and shaky, your army is mostly smoking holes on the field, and your plans have all been weighed, and succeded or did not. Turn 4 is over and you have one more chance, remember it is a chance! There is hope, even there at the ugly end of things. Count his models, what can score and what can not, count yours, and rally your men. Turn 6 is our turn, tau can move where we need to and get just enough shots where we need them to squeak out a victory. Perhaps a small win, but a win none the less.


Dude, that was an excellent report, Kudos. And a well played game ;D


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Old 16 Jan 2006, 16:01   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Need help against Chaos + why are my Kroot always wasted?

Your tactics and list actually seem sound to me. The only comment I have on the list is that pathfinders are too much of a pointsink for their firepower until 1750 points. Drop them and you'd have room for a hammerhead. Personally, I like mine with railgun, burst cannons, multi-tracker, decoy launchers, for maximum number of shots. I think this would be a good option for you because you'll want the railgun for any heavy armor you run into, as well as the speed to escape from the main group of infiltrators so the tank can strike from outside their range the whole game.

It sounds like you were being a bit careless with your crisis suits. Don't put them into a position where they can be assaulted. I personally like the helios configuration you have on the Shas'els (though you need their BS4 for it to be effective) but you have to be very careful to put them back out of the 12" assault range after every round.

Other than that you were in good position to win at the end, but had aweful luck with moral rolls on the fire warriors and Shas'el.

Infiltrating kroot alongside the stealths is a really good tactic. The kroot add firepower as well as drawing attention away from the more valuable stealths. If the stealths are in danger of being overrun, then the kroot can rush in and slow the attackers down a turn while the stealths slip away.

Purchasing suggestions would be a hammerhead and then a box of kroot.
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Old 16 Jan 2006, 16:13   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Need help against Chaos + why are my Kroot always wasted?

Quote:
Here's my question, so let's say I bunch all the firewarriors into a small area against marine players to maximize fire power. EVERY marine will focus on my position and over-run me. Is it really possible for me to shoot-up most of the marines before they reach me (especially when they show up 18 inches away and can use terrain cover to get to me)?
No, it really isn't. With a hybrid army what I generally do is bunch up anyway, shoot as much as I can, which usually leaves a large hole to go through, and then run a fighting retreat in that direction. This is also an area where a 10-unit of kroot shines, severely limiting his infiltration capacity and holding the line somewhere so you can shoot others or move off in another direction.

Remember what people always say about the Tau: they must fight as a whole army. Every unit is not a mini-army, like with marines. If you have some fire warriors off on their own, they might cause some damage, but if a marine squad simply stops and fires with bolters they will beat you most of the time!

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does crew stunned or shaken mean the guys inside can't dismount?
Unfortunately not, but you've brought their movement down quite a bit, which is the goal.

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it is just 3 in. isn't it?
Considering the number of my games that have hinged on a single massacre or difficult terrain roll, I'm inclined to say that no, there is no such thing as "just 3 in."

About the HQs, I often take twin plasma-fusion-hwmt Els because I face nothing but marine armies with like, one vehicle max. I use them as you do, they're fantastic, and if someone IS vehicle heavy I can go for the deepstrike fusion shot.

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Why didn't you?
Cuz the El failed his leadership test. (!) Otherwise how would he run off the table?
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