Tau Empire Codex 2013 | Army Builder Program
Dark Angels Codex 2013
Chaos Daemons Codex 2013
Chaos Space Marines Codex 2012

Warhammer 40k Forum Tau Online

 

Warhammer 40K Forum

Tactical Applications of the Vespid
Closed Thread
Old 05 Jan 2006, 18:41   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Hattiesburg, Mississippi
Posts: 45
Default Tactical Applications of the Vespid

Today I am considering the tactical applications of the new unit we are getting, the vespid. While the codex is not out, I think the unit's statistics are well enough known to generally know what their abilities will be, enough at least to be able to talk about their application, and their place in armies. If someone has questions about what the units stats are a look at the rumors threads should solidify the (mostly) confirmed general statistics at this point.

I would generally term them a fast, medium armored, short ranged anti-heavy infantry force.


Tactical Uses

Objective Holding
They do not have the statistics or abilities to stand against anything the size of a heavy bolter or higher, but have a gun that is designed to deal with things such as MEQs. This means to me that they will generally be an unwise choice to move forward to hold objectives. Also, as our units may no longer hide behind the Devilfish having a mobile LOS blocker is now denied to us. Therefore they will have to leapfrok through terrain to go to an objective to hold it, and can be forced out from in HTH.

Kauyon

In my mind this is the method of battle they fit into the easiest. With bait up front to draw an attacker in, they can move forward when the Kauyon closes the trap, asisting to destroy hard to reach units. Due to some of the problems I potentially see with the unit I am still not sure if they serve this better then other units, but that will be a debate for when their point costs are confirmed. Still, a defensive unit that stays behind cover, that assists in delivering the killing blow is how I see them most commonly used. However, should they be unable to destroy the unit, or be exposed to too much return fire, they will soon be destroyed, either in HTH or firing. The ability to use the Markerlights however may make their ability to destroy MEQ's this way too powerful to ignore.

Harassment

With their high movement (12 inch + fleet) they should be able to move into position fairly early in tha game. After that, combined with their movement and range of their gun they should have a 30 inch projection of fire. It may be that they make an excellent unit to assist a flank attack with, perhaps aiding Stealth suits on one side. A long movement on the first turn then an attack on the second could prove useful. While not have a Warp Spider's ability to teleport back, I think that unit would be the closest analogous to this one in terms of ability in this situation. Hunting emblaced rear units such as devestators could also prove useful.

Hand to Hand

I hesitate to even mention this, but it may be that they would be one additional speed pump for HTH purposes. Their guns planly put them in the way of incoming enemy, and perhaps could buy a unit enough time to redeploy. In addition I would not be surprised if they are affected by the ability of an Ethereal, unlike the Kroot, which would mean you could force them to flee when the time is right. Perhaps even charging a unit after firing, to lock them into hth in the their phase, then escaping at the end of their turn to leave them exposed. Sometimes for the greater good some must be sacrificed to save the whole.

Deepstrike

While I am unsure that they will have the ability to deepstrike, I would not be surprised if they could. If so, along with the use of the new Beacon on the Pathfinder's devilish, they could make an interesting form of strategy against an opponent with a weak rear, or to allow the vespid to easily deploy later if need be to a better position for the sake of the mission objectives.

Limitations

Cost
The most obvious limitation of the unit will be it's point cost. If the unit is relatively cheap, say 13-17 points, then I think we will see a fair number of them fielded. However, if they are more espensive, say 18-23 points a model, I think they will be a tactically unsound unit.

The reason is this: the purpose of the unit is to kill marines. They will generally only have one chance to do this, as they will move forward, attack, and then be forced to bear the brunt of any return fire from the target unit or nearby supporting units. If they are 15 points a model, and you can field them in units of up to 10, then you could move forward, fire, and expect to kill at or around 4-5 models, although with markerlights this turns to 8-9 of them.

However, if the are 20 points a model and you can field groups of six of them, then they will be 120 points that without markerlights, will movefoward, get three hits and wound 2 times. They will then get torn apart in the return gunfire/HTH

The most obvious application of them to me is in a defensive posture, or perhaps as the patient hunter. The vespid seem built to pop forward and engage at fairly close range (under 20 inches) enemy units. Their lack of range and high cost, combined with low defense, medium armor, average toughness, will mean they cannot survive any sustained engagement.

Fast Attack Choices

The other determining factor, especially in larger games (1500pts +) is that we only have 3 fast attack choices. Pathfinders, already a good choice, are getting upgrades to the Markerlight, and their Devilfish. Gun Drones are already an excellent throw away unit for Deepstrike and blocking enemy assaults, and now we are finally getting the Pirahna, a Fast Skimmer that will assist in board quarter games. I know that for me I will be hard pressed to find room for the vespid.

Has anyone else done any thinking about the potential uses for this unit? Anyone feel they are just the thing they were looking for, or see something that I missed? Thanks for reading.

Prodigalson is offline  
Old 05 Jan 2006, 23:32   #2 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,098
Send a message via AIM to T pok Send a message via MSN to T pok
Default Re: Tactical Applications of the Vespid

Path finders aren't that good.

Vespid taking out 2 marines well losing 120 points is only good aganist a marine list I write.(I make masters that cost 220 points).

Devil fishs have never blocked line of sight.
__________________
http://mylifelm.wordpress.com/
Quote:
Originally Posted by Savon Saal
brave kid, i don't know if i could do that. whichever girl gets you for life is the luckiest in the world.
T pok is offline  
Old 05 Jan 2006, 23:46   #3 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Retired back into the depths of the Internets.
Posts: 6,440
Send a message via MSN to mace
Default Re: Tactical Applications of the Vespid

Not many people are really in a position to answer this.. but anyway, heres mine

Just like kroot, these guys really need cover saves to survive shooting (I have bolters in mind)

Objective Holding and Deepstrike
Deep Striking into a terrain piece should only bring an extremely rare penalties - which makes them suitable for deepstriking into position to either hold an objective or just to get into a better position than would otherwise be possible.

Kauyon
From my calculations, markerlight supported Vespids kill more meq's per turn than anything else in the Tau army of equal points cost. (e.g. best point effeciency at killing MEQs)

Harrasment
I don't see them as too suitable in this role - they're left very vulnerable (to everything) if they are to get in range with their guns. Kinda makes them a one-shot kamikaze unit.

Hand to Hand
As rumoured, I would agree that they are between that of Kroot and Tau in terms of CC. They are better in some aspects, but just don't last against MEQs (well, neither to Kroot or Tau). I would rather use detached Gun Drones (from vehicles - as they're pretty much free) - and put the Vespid's AP3 to better use elsewhere.

[hr]

Limitations: Cost
They come cheap. Their statline isn't too good (Pimped up GEQs? :\) - though they do have decent toughness. And are fast.. very fast...

Fast Attack Choices:
With the new codex release, and all the new units, these choices will be contested.. It will take a proper look at their actual statline and rules, along with some usage ingame before I can determine what I want to be using for my fast attack.. So far though, I think I'll have a squad of everything, apart from drones, which might have their roles replaced by piranha (you get drones on these anyway )

[hr]

Their Advantages:
- Decent movement - allows them to get into a position very quickly or respond to a threat.
- AP3 Guns - this is their strong point

Disadvantages:
- Very Vulnerable - they get ripped in both Shooting and CC - this means that you should probably use them in a similar way to FoF - that is, against weak/small units where you have a high chance of annihilating them so that there isn't any return fire (from the target squad anyway)


Tactics
The main one I see, is basically what you mentioned - holding them back to 'lurk' around your firebases and lines etc, and when needed, jump forward to respond to a threat (like assualt marines!). Given markerlight support, statistically they will wipe out half/just over half a full squad of assualt marines in one turn of shooting. Basically I see them as a counter-fast unit - sitting back patiently until something comes towards them (rather then going on suicide runs themselves). They use their own speed and weapons (along with markerlight support) to respond to opposing fast (infantry/3+ save) units and wipe them out before they do some damage.
__________________
mace is offline  
Old 05 Jan 2006, 23:54   #4 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 82
Default Re: Tactical Applications of the Vespid

Although I probably do not say anything by this I think their uses will be decided when we see their actual stats. First of all we don't know how much they will cost (as mentioned) which has a huge impact. Secondly there seem to be some discussion as to the actual S of the gun they are carrying. Third, they do seem to suck at CC as everything else in the list.

With a short ranged weapon(supposedly <=12") they need to be cheap enough to be sacrificed after their initial blow. If they aren't cheap enough to be sacrificed I can't really see how we can afford to field them in quantities able to kill of a target with one blow. If we talk Necrons they have a tendency to show up in quite a large amount. And anything standing withing 18" of them Necrons really is in trouble if it is 1. Expensive 2. Lacks T 3. Lacks Sv.

On the other hand, anything fielded with a decent chance of bringing down a necron unit in one round of shooting probably have enough numbers to survive quite a bit of return fire... If they make them like 6pts or so...

Maybe I'm just rambling here, but units with 12" move generally move 12" to 1. Assault 2. Move away from others trying to assault them while firing their long ranged weaponry. It works with a bit of luck with FoF, but then you have a Tank in the way that makes it a bit longer then 12" to get the charge in... what are one going to put in front of the Stingwings, a squadron of Piranhas?
fork is offline  
Old 06 Jan 2006, 00:08   #5 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Retired back into the depths of the Internets.
Posts: 6,440
Send a message via MSN to mace
Default Re: Tactical Applications of the Vespid

Interesting Ideas there - you mean a Vespid FoF equivalent combined with a squadron of Fusion Blaster Piranhas?

Not many of us have seen the actual stats.. though I think I'm saying a bit too much here. Compared to the rest of the Tau army, I would say that they are the most efficient (points-wise) MEQ killers available to the Tau, though they might not be too survivable to anything. Same thing goes for against Necrons.
__________________
mace is offline  
Old 06 Jan 2006, 00:30   #6 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 82
Default Re: Tactical Applications of the Vespid

Quote:
Originally Posted by [ mace
link=topic=16030.msg252600#msg252600 date=1136509697]
Interesting Ideas there - you mean a Vespid FoF equivalent combined with a squadron of Fusion Blaster Piranhas?
E-x-p-e-n-s-i-v-e , but yeah. Since we don't want to end up in CC we'll have to park in DT and hope they won't make their DT rolls, or put some roadblock in between, preferrably something that isn't prone to dying on a charge - like a 'fish or some other "less expensive skimmer".
fork is offline  
Old 06 Jan 2006, 03:47   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: New York city
Posts: 1,646
Send a message via AIM to DireStrike Send a message via MSN to DireStrike
Default Re: Tactical Applications of the Vespid

Well. Points cost... I don't know how clearly I'm allowed to say it, but according to the rumors I've read, a full squad of 10 will cost about the same as a crisis team. They are not exactly cheap.

Their save is penetrated by bolters - they are hardly medium armored. Their T is rumored to be 4, which makes them a bit more survivable but still weak. BS is still in question as to whether it's 3 or 4 - I would be surprised if it were 4 though. They have one stat that is "higher than a marine", speculated to be initiative.

Gun is pretty solidly rumored as S5, AP3, assault1, range 12.

The few stats in rumor flux could vastly change these guys' roles. If they have BS 4 they will be a strong and fearsome anti-infantry choice. Depending on which stat is "higher than a marine" they could be near worthless(S/A), or quirky(I), or indispensible(W). Or ridiculously overpowered (BS). ;D

It looks like these guys will be a super fragile one-trick-pony with no pony. The shooting equivalent of rough riders. Of course the finalized stats will tell. But Ap3 weaponry is something the Tau army badly needs.
DireStrike is offline  
Old 06 Jan 2006, 06:19   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Capital o Oz
Posts: 128
Default Re: Tactical Applications of the Vespid

The fact that they are likely to get fleet but not able to fly like a jump unit is quite annoying. I was thinking about sitting them behind terrain, flying out, shooting, and then assaulting any unit that got close. They would hold the unit up for one turn, then die so you can shoot at the unit again your next turn.

That was obviously determined as overpowered though. Still, it might work if they have move through cover.
__________________
108/20/22 w/d/l
Tournament: 25/5/5
onlainari is offline  
Old 06 Jan 2006, 07:18   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
Wolf-Tau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,426
Default Re: Tactical Applications of the Vespid

Quote:
Originally Posted by [ mace
link=topic=16030.msg252600#msg252600 date=1136509697]

Not many of us have seen the actual stats. . .
I for one have not seen the stats, I have heard the rumors but to guess now would be to just kill some time. I do play to get them the day they are released.

How do I plan to try them out you say? Well, I for one will use a small unit at first. From the rumors, I was thinking a 6-8 model unit. I feel in a 750 to 1000 point game, will give me a good feel for what they can do.

I don't plan on making them a Be All and Kill all unit, but I think as a decoy or harassment unit will really work.

My plan for a 1000 point force.
I will have my main front doing most of the shooting while I plan to send a stealth team up one flank (5 man Unit) and the Vespids up another (I will be trying to split up my opponents forces) . I will then chose the weaker flank for the Vespids to attack. I plan to send in a single Crisis suit to assist but not make it look like it was part of the plan. If it looks like the Vespids can take foot hold, I will shift my forces to that flank to take advantage while the Crisis goes in as back up. If the Vespids get taken out the Crisis suit will be there just in case to hold that flank until I can shift my forces to compinsate for the loss.

I will then see if the unit can survive assaulting a unit. This will depend in the Initive of the Vespid.

If the unit was cost effecitve, if the unit is too expensive. In other words do I have to make the unit very large in order to just survive assaulting a unit. If this is the case points can be spent else where.

Will the unit pay for itself? By that I mean, will the unit do what I need it to do? Can it hold off/delay an attack like the kroot.

Or will it be another Pathfinder unit that is too expensive to use in most games?

Personally, I still think it is way too earlier to discuss this unit until at least some of the stats are known!

Wolf-Tau
__________________
Long Time Space Wolf and Tau Player, played II, III, IV, and now V ed.
Armies Played, Black Templar, IG, Elysians, and Eldar. Tried Grey Hunters
Fear is the Mind Killer. Fear is the little Death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear and permit it to pass over me and through me.
Eldar Blog http://forums.tauonline.org/index.php?topic=59588.0
My Non-Breaking Flying base for http://forums.tauonline.org/index.php?topic=59730.0
Wolf-Tau is offline  
Old 06 Jan 2006, 08:20   #10 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Retired back into the depths of the Internets.
Posts: 6,440
Send a message via MSN to mace
Default Re: Tactical Applications of the Vespid

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf-Tau
I for one have not seen the stats
Heh, No comment then.

It is a bit debatable what the most effective unit is, but it appears I didn't take rapid firing into account when considering the most effective MEQ killers (and so I take back my statement that they are the best MEQ killers available - as it isn't entirely true). Apparently points wise, they are just beaten by 3 TL Plasma Suits rapid firing, or 18 fire warriors rapid firing (compared to the equivalent points value of stingwings with the strain leader included). Massed pulsefire seems to be better at killing marines actually, but only just. But - once you take into account their mobility, it's probably more accurate to say that they are the most mobile marine killers avail. to Tau, compared to Fire Warriors. (And the fact that they're only one squad, rather than 1 and a half other squads, or a dedicated marine killing crisis team..).

Not too sure where I was going with that - but basically their extra bit of movement makes them more suitable for responding to threats from fast marines units, e.g. assualt marines or deepstriking units.

Regarding their statline, as I've said many times - it's between that of Kroot and Tau. Pretty average statline - though they do have one characteristic that is better than marines (and Kroot Hounds ) and one other that makes them at least on par with MEQs - making them 'a bit more survivable' ()
__________________
mace is offline  
Closed Thread

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
D&D 40k Group wanted (Info and Applications inside) Lord Zambia Serious Roleplay 25 22 Mar 2010 22:49
Graphic/Publishing Applications? greatmaju Computers, Science and Technology 15 31 Oct 2008 20:34
Silent applications? Need help sarnas Computers, Science and Technology 2 07 Mar 2008 23:01
New Vespid unit, also codex Vespid up for constructive criticism agian. Omeganus Minor Races 11 19 Jan 2007 19:01