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RulesQ: Skimmers, Glancing hits and AP1 weapons.
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Old 27 Dec 2005, 23:31   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default RulesQ: Skimmers, Glancing hits and AP1 weapons.

Hi there, browsing through my rule book and I stumble across the vehicle section. There are a few instances of modifying glancing to penetrating hits and vice versa. While most of them are clear ( I state them below in the highly unlikely case someone have a different opinion ).

In order of appearance.


AP1 weapons (G>P)
Special rules (P>G) (like Eldar Wraith Cannon)
Obscured (P>G)
AP- P>G (can only ever score glancing)

So a AP1 weapon firing at an obscured vehicle will only ever get glancing hits. First all glancing are upgraded to penetrating then all penetrating hits are downgraded to glancing as the rules on AP1 weapons clearly say.

The thing is that I think hits against skimmers are downgraded because they are hard to see and aim at, i.e. they will be almost classified as obscured whenever they move more then 6". Now it would have been an easy thing to just state "skimmers moving more then 6" count as obscured", but then don't. Which lead me to suspect that there may be some difference in when the downgrading is applied. I don't know any weapon or other special rules that ignore the downgrading on pen. hits on obscured targets or skimmers. But I might be wrong here.

(?)So the question then: When firing an AP1 weapon on a skimmer:
Case 1: Skimmer special rule all pen=glanc are applied before the AP1 all glanc=pen, therefore all hits are penetrating.

Case 2: Skimmer special rule all pen=glanc are applied after the AP1 all glanc=pen, therefore all hits are glancing.

I'm leaning towards case 2, but please tell me why. I can't seem to find a good reference in the rule book, only a intuitive feeling it should work that way.
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Old 27 Dec 2005, 23:58   #2 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: RulesQ: Skimmers, Glancing hits and AP1 weapons.

Glancing. Just think about it, one step at a time, knowing that I am right, and realize it.

1. Railgun fires at Falcon

2. Railgun beats the Falcon's Armour value, causing a Penetrating Hit.

3. Falcon went 12" last turn, so the Penetrating Hit becomes a Glacing Hit.

See?
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Old 28 Dec 2005, 00:04   #3 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: RulesQ: Skimmers, Glancing hits and AP1 weapons.

If you think about it all, the rulebooks example can make sense to any other question you have. If it says that all penetrating hits become glancing, then they do, it doesn't matter if your in cover, or whatever...
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Old 28 Dec 2005, 00:36   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: RulesQ: Skimmers, Glancing hits and AP1 weapons.

Yea, but sometimes it gets a bit confusing, just work out how it happened in chronilogical order and the answer is right there. Kind of what MechTau said, I was just expanding what he said sort of.



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Old 28 Dec 2005, 00:40   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: RulesQ: Skimmers, Glancing hits and AP1 weapons.

what if a target launches smoke? and then you hit it with the railgun? because i always assumed that an AP1 gun NEVER glances, it always full pens, if it exceeds or meets the armor value of the target. am i wrong? do skimmers moving over 12" still get only glancing? and do smoke lauchers still protect you from full pens? and do you still only get glances after getting hit with an AP1 gun in the case of a hull down/obscured target? (example: rail gun hits rhino, rolls to penetrate and scores a 5. opponent rolls for hull down and rolls a 6. the target is now hull down and that penetrating hit becomes a glancing hit. correct? incorrect?)
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Old 28 Dec 2005, 00:43   #6 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: RulesQ: Skimmers, Glancing hits and AP1 weapons.

My god.

1. Railgun hits

2. Railgun exceeds/matchs a targets AV, causing a penetrating hit

3. Penetrating hit is downgraded by smoke launchers/obscured/skimmer moving fast/[shadow=red,left][glow=red,2,300]!!!!!!!!!!! ETC ETC !!!!!!!!!!!!![/glow][/shadow]

Please think before your keyboard makes contact with your fingers...
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Old 28 Dec 2005, 00:56   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: RulesQ: Skimmers, Glancing hits and AP1 weapons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MechTau
My god.

1. Railgun hits

2. Railgun exceeds/matchs a targets AV, causing a penetrating hit

3. Penetrating hit is downgraded by smoke launchers/obscured/skimmer moving fast/[shadow=red,left][glow=red,2,300]!!!!!!!!!!! ETC ETC !!!!!!!!!!!!![/glow][/shadow]

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fine, sheesh...dont need to be nasty about it, chill out.
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Old 28 Dec 2005, 01:07   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: RulesQ: Skimmers, Glancing hits and AP1 weapons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fork
In order of appearance.


AP1 weapons (G>P)
Special rules (P>G) (like Eldar Wraith Cannon)
Obscured (P>G)
AP- P>G (can only ever score glancing)

So a
You've read the rules wrong. An AP1 weapon doesn't "turn a glancing hit into a penetrating hit". Instead it simply "penetrates on a roll equal to or greater than the target's armor value". There's an important distinction there. With AP1 weapons, you can only score penetrating hits. Then, any special abilities which might affect penetrating hits (obscurement, skimmer moving fast, etc.) still work as normal. If you read the rules slowly and carefully it actually makes good sense.
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Old 28 Dec 2005, 01:09   #9 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: RulesQ: Skimmers, Glancing hits and AP1 weapons.

Eh. To me, this is one of those rule vagarities you flip on, or roll a die for.

I actually called GW about this. On the telephone. And they said that skimmers *don't* downgrade AP1.
I called three days later, they said skimmers DO downgrade AP1.
I called a week later... Yup, you guessed it. Skimmers don't. And yes, these were different people.

It's obvious that we Tau players would love to have our railguns beat skimming when it suits us. But we also don't want AP1 to blow our skimmers apart. So any way we call it in a game, someone else is BOUND to contradict you and say you're making the ruling in your favor. It's a mess that I wish GW would get their act together about.

The rule might be there, but it's not nearly explicit enough.

Edit: In light of T0nkas post, It makes more sense for skimming to downgrade. Even still, the people I play against can be total jerks, and I'm the only one who uses skimmers, so they'd be *happy* to short-change me. Fighting this would be an uphill battle, so frankly I don't care.* :P
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Old 28 Dec 2005, 01:21   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: RulesQ: Skimmers, Glancing hits and AP1 weapons.

You should always fight a rule to prevent confusion in the future. At least if someone or something comes along in the future you're on record as to where you stood.
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