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FoF Pathfinders and Hammerheads
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Old 25 Dec 2005, 06:29   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default FoF Pathfinders and Hammerheads

Okay, here's the big question

One FoFs with two devilfish fully loaded as follows:

12 fw's PR
8 pf's PC
make up for the loss in gundrones

Now normally, one would take all FW's

this idea uses the markerlight in later rounds and employs the pf's pulse carbine abilities (and the gun drone's as well), so there are more chances for pinning.

because the pathfinder's markerlight increases the firewarrior's chance to hit, i find it very useful in combination with FoF.

This also sets up a safe parameter for the pathfinders to use their markerlights and their rail rifles - both heavy weapons which the stationary position can use for great effect after turn one.

Any comments on this strategy?

Part two

The hammerhead combined with FoF

the devilfish appear as so:

/ \ |
/fw \ | <- side of map
/ pf \ |

and here's the hammerhead:

/ \ |
/fw \ | <- side of map
/ pf \ |
\
\ <-- hammerhead

what this does is places the FoF troops behind melee blockers on all sides while giving the hammerhead the cover in front of it granted by the squads of fire warriors and pathfinders. note: can blocking a hammerhead with infantry squads be done?
note: placing the hammerhead as such provides more defensive bonus for the fw's and pf's than for the hammerhead. arranging the hammerhead directly behind the squads, however, gives it more cover.

equip the df's with mutlitrackers and you've got yourself a living wall of firepower. you can use cheeseball tactics to move the devilfishes 6 inches a round to simply swamp places (also wanting to make sure this is legal)

also, if you're going to target the usually enemies with the FoF tactic, it might be best to get the Ion cannon with the hammerhead.

any comments?
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Old 25 Dec 2005, 06:49   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: FoF Pathfinders and Hammerheads

You can't combine/mix and match squads in dedicated transports (refer to rulebook? Devilfishes are dedicated transports btw). And so you would have to go for the second option of 12 FWs + DF and 8 PFs + DF.
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Old 25 Dec 2005, 07:32   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: FoF Pathfinders and Hammerheads

Hey try not to take this to personally mate, but considering the tactica you've been posting ( this one and the one concerning crisis weapons) perhaps its best that you read all the tau and 40k rules before posting advice. It helps to stop the spread of disinformation.
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Old 25 Dec 2005, 09:14   #4 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: FoF Pathfinders and Hammerheads

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shana Sel
Okay, here's the big question

One FoFs with two devilfish fully loaded as follows:

8 fw's PR
4 pf's PC
8 fw's PR
4 pf's PC
can't mix squads like this. you'd need 4 devilfish to take these 4. as it stands, its a FW squad and pathfinder squad, (or preferably 2 FW squads)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shana Sel
or to reduce the number of fast attack you take up, switch the squads to

12 fw's PR
8 pf's PC
make up for the loss in gundrones
better. but gundrones?gun drones in squads make little sense. more troopers!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shana Sel
Now normally, one would take all FW's

this idea uses the markerlight in later rounds and employs the pf's pulse carbine abilities (and the gun drone's as well), so there are more chances for pinning.

because the pathfinder's markerlight increases the firewarrior's chance to hit, i find it very useful in combination with FoF.

This also sets up a safe parameter for the pathfinders to use their markerlights and their rail rifles - both heavy weapons which the stationary position can use for great effect after turn one.
one normally takes all FWs with rifles for a reason: more fire warriors (squads fo up to 12 as opposed to PF's 8) and more shots (2 per fire warrior with rapid fire, as opposed to one with pathfinders)

using the markerlight as a tactic is fine in a general sense, but not here. Each turn you fly your illegal PF/FW squad around the place is one less turn you are markerlighting stuff. and PFs should by rights be at the back of your board lighting up targets all game. as well, the pinning effect of carbines is pathetic. you lose out on 50% of the firepower of a rifle, and pinning is a worthless boon, considering the unpinnable nature of most other troops. Orks have mob rule. tyranids have synapse. marines have rites of battle. chaos marines have MoCU. heck. other tau have etherial twin linked morale. and using the PFs to light for the fire warriors? bad tactic. each successful markerlight hit allows one FW to hit at bs5. so, with your illegal squads i get 4 fire warriors at bs5. i can think of other units in my army that would benefit more from bs5...
as said, pathfinders should be at the back of the board, using their 36" range to the best of effect. and never take rail rifles. pathfinders are glorified fire warriors that light up targets with markerlights. they are not meant to be used as half assed snipers with a dodgy gun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shana Sel
Part two

The hammerhead combined with FoF

the devilfish appear as so:

/ \ |
/fw \ | <- side of map
/ pf \ |

and here's the hammerhead:

/ \ |
/fw \ | <- side of map
/ pf \ |
\
\ <-- hammerhead

what this does is places the FoF troops behind melee blockers on all sides while giving the hammerhead the cover in front of it granted by the squads of fire warriors and pathfinders. note: can blocking a hammerhead with infantry squads be done?
note: placing the hammerhead as such provides more defensive bonus for the fw's and pf's than for the hammerhead. arranging the hammerhead directly behind the squads, however, gives it more cover.

equip the df's with mutlitrackers and you've got yourself a living wall of firepower. you can use cheeseball tactics to move the devilfishes 6 inches a round to simply swamp places (also wanting to make sure this is legal)

also, if you're going to target the usually enemies with the FoF tactic, it might be best to get the Ion cannon with the hammerhead.

any comments?
bull. troops and skimmers no longer block LOS. you can have 5 devilfish, and 6 squads of fire warriors in front of my hammerhead. i pass a ld check, i can still shoot it. as well, your tactic is base don an illegal squad make up.

there are far better tactics than fish of fury.

check your rulebook and tau codex. you've miss read quite a number of rules...
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Old 25 Dec 2005, 11:25   #5 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: FoF Pathfinders and Hammerheads

You can't screen, you can't use the tanks as cover etc, and they don't block LOS whatsoever. The only function the tanks perform is to block assualts, but even then, if a unit can pass straight over them, they're unaffected.

There is really no need to block up the area behind them with yet another tank. There are then issues with the tanks moving over 6" to take advantage of the glance only - skimmers moving fast rule, which basically means in order for your tanks to stay alive longer, the hammerhead at least has to relocate etc.

Infact, all you're really suggestion is a variant of the double fish of fury, using a FW squad and a pathfinder squad instead of another Fire Warrior squad. The only advantage would be having slightly longer range, but then that would put the other Fire Warrior squad out of rapid fire range, which makes it rather pointless. It's better to stick to two FW squads. And even then, FoF isn't really a tactic to be depended (or expanded) on.. The pathfinders are better off using their markerlights than FoF'ing. The current tactic is as good as it will get.
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Old 25 Dec 2005, 16:53   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: FoF Pathfinders and Hammerheads

To address a few issues with this idea of mine:

Illegal Unit Number No more than 1 unit per transport.

Tank cover only provides safety from the one thing that Tau fear most: melee. I also took into account the fact that FoF can end quickly and badly given the enemy moves fast enough, hence the idea of the additional hammerhead wall. I know these guys don't get cover saves from these, but that protection from melee is pretty valuable.

Marker Lights Actually, the pathfinders aren't there for the FW's, they're there for everyone. And being able to reach most of the enemy army in a forward position isn't too bad. With enough marker lights, each until of the Tau shooting force can hit pretty well.

Fish of Fury And if you look at the intentions of this tactic, it's really less of the blitzkrieg FoF tactic than a protect the pathfinder's from melee tactic. They essentially act as sniper scopes from behind a protective wall (protective, of course, only from melee).

Protection from Shooting Their are a few protections from shooting here, though not your normal cover and line of sight ones. The protections are priority based - not which units they have to make a morale save to hit, but which units they want to hit.

- The surrounding walls: Equip these babies with multitrackers and you get firing walls, which the enemy wants to take down. If they spend their fire on hits that can only be glancing (granted you moved them), you save your pf's and fw's from dangerous attacks.

- Danger Priority: Who does your enemy really want to kill - the firewarriors and pathfinders and their devilfish or the rest of your army who, last turn, did the damage after the marker lights hit?

A note on the gundrones:
Deadnight, you're right about the shooting usefulness of drones. But if you check the codex, you'll find I don't have the luxury of throwing in more troops in this arrangement, unless its more pathfinders (fast attack), making two squads of them in one devilfish - which i can't do by the rules - no mro than one unit to a fish. there is one part of drones you might like though - the return fire phase, where the drones die but the unit doesn't need a morale save (a good counter point, however, is that if the unit has a majority of wounds as pf's or fw's then the gundrones can't take the hit for them) (however, if you have smaller squads, this can become less of a problem)

A note on moving Deadnight, you're right that moving reduces the efficiency of the markerlight. I find that FoF is more of a Mont'ka stationary tactic than anythingelse though, unless you really wanna lose a lot of shots. i intend this group to stay still and use their max potential, which is why the out-of-the-box shooting priority ideas are so valuable. And, as another note on moving, before the game i can place the pf's where the fw's care going to go, and granted i go first, i can set up a FoF wall and get my markerlights (or railguns)

finally,

from Deadnight:
bull. troops and skimmers no longer block LOS. you can have 5 devilfish, and 6 squads of fire warriors in front of my hammerhead. i pass a ld check, i can still shoot it.

Yes I know they don't block LOS but they do cause leadership priority, like you said. And you know what, its not that bad considering that it just saved my pf's from getting shot at and if it moved it makes the hits glancing, if one did succeed and shot at the hammerhead.

All in all, i like the 2+ to hit idea. So this tactic tries to keep the little guy up.

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Old 25 Dec 2005, 16:56   #7 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: FoF Pathfinders and Hammerheads

Illegal Squad Size In both versions of the tactic, the squad size is legal. i said mix and match because in both, the squad size IS legal, just different. I did check that Tau rule.
you cant stick different squads in the same transport. a FW team and Pathfinder team, are two different squads. one fish cant carry them both at the same time. it cant carry 2 6man FW teams. I unit per transport. check the rulebook.


Tank cover only provides safety from the one thing that Tau fear most: melee. I also took into account the fact that FoF can end quickly and badly given the enemy moves fast enough, hence the idea of the additional hammerhead wall. I know these guys don't get cover saves from these, but that protection from melee is pretty valuable.
true. but im more worried about meltaguns than assault marines to be honest.

Marker Lights Actually, the pathfinders aren't there for the FW's, they're there for everyone. And being able to reach most of the enemy army in a forward position isn't too bad. With enough marker lights, each until of the Tau shooting force can hit pretty well.
actually, it is very bad, as it puts you in an easier place to be assaulted. Ive no problems with pathfinder use per se, but if you want to use them, then why aren't they at the back of the board, lighting stuff up, instead of playing fire warrior and fish of fury-ing?

Fish of Fury And if you look at the intentions of this tactic, it's really less of the blitzkrieg FoF tactic than a protect the pathfinder's from melee tactic. They essentially act as sniper scopes from behind a protective wall (protective, of course, only from melee).
tactic is irrelevant based on the illegal make up of your 2 squads per transport.

Protection from Shooting Their are a few protections from shooting here, though not your normal cover and line of sight ones. The protections are priority based - not which units they have to make a morale save to hit, but which units they want to hit.
in other words you give him a huge plethora of targets.

- The (actually legal) 4/8/4/8 mix: This unit-expensive group gives you one distinct advantage: Huge enemy fire squads can only fire at one unit at a time, given they don't have target locks or equivalent. This means that if a huge squad of shooters fires at you, they can take out a max of eight troops.
but you cant take 2 squads per transport!

- The surrounding walls: Equip these babies with multitrackers and you get firing walls, which the enemy wants to take down. If they spend their fire on hits that can only be glancing (granted you moved them), you save your pf's and fw's from dangerous attacks.
meh. if i put down the tank, then ive blocked LOS to your pathfinders. In any case, id rather fire at the hammerhead than the pathfinders.

- Danger Priority: Who does your enemy really want to kill - the firewarriors and pathfinder and their devilfish or the rest of your army who, last turn, did the damage after the marker lights hit?
it depends. if they have a balanced army, thry should be able to do both. assault units for the infantry. something with a meltagun for the tanks.

A note on the gundrones: Deadnight, you're right about the shooting usefulness of drones. But if you check the codex, you'll find I don't have the luxury of throwing in more troops in this arrangement, unless its more pathfinders (fast attack), making two squads of them in one devilfish - i can't throw in four more fire warriors in any case, which is where the strategy of mixed up squads comes from - smaller numbers give me more troop options. The devilfishes can carry multiple units, its limit is by model number. there is one part of drones you might like though - the return fire phase, where the drones die but the unit doesn't need a morale save (a good counter point, however, is that if the unit has a majority of wounds as pf's or fw's then the gundrones can't take the hit for them) (however, if you have smaller squads, this can become less of a problem)
but mixed squads is illegal. i would love to read the rule that devilfish can take multiple squads, considering the rulebook itself forbids it. its one squad per transport.

Yes I know they don't block LOS but they do cause leadership priority, like you said. And you know what, its not that bad considering that it just saved my pf's from getting shot at and if it moved it makes the hits glancing.
he got unlucky. most troops have quite high ld.

All in all, i like the 2+ to hit idea. So this tactic tries to keep the little guy up.
illegal mixed squads make it irrelevant.
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Old 25 Dec 2005, 17:27   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: FoF Pathfinders and Hammerheads

First off as said you cannot mix units in transports. To do this you would need FOUR devilfish. Thats a minimum of 340 points spent on transports. Equipped right thats 400. Add the coste of the troops to that and you have a huge chunk of your army invested in this one tactic. Adding a hammerhead or two even more so. There is not going to be much more to your army for the enemy to be distracted with. Plus to maintain this "wall" your skimmers arent going to be moving much, thus removing the inherent protections they have. A target priority test is nothing, I rarely see these failed. To relly on that alone to save you from shooting is not going to hold up well. Also jump pack troops, the ones that most often threaten melea when using FoF can just jump right over your tanks behind you and assault you from the rear. No problems there, this wall again will not hold them back.

You may have read the Tau codex thoroughly but it is plain that you do not know the rules well enough. You really need to know both the main rules and the codex very well before you start posting tacticas and unit break downs. No offence Shana Sel but you really should not do anymore of these. Posting misinformation does not help.



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Old 25 Dec 2005, 17:44   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: FoF Pathfinders and Hammerheads

Altought new to warhammer 40k, but I know the rules says that skimmer can't block line of sight and different units can't be in the same transport dude :-\

You need to read rulebook first then codex, not the other way around.

The moderator should close this page under questionable post.
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Old 25 Dec 2005, 18:12   #10 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: FoF Pathfinders and Hammerheads

Good point guys. Sorry for the misinformation and thanks for the clarification.

from prior post by deadnight, quoting me(underlined):

Yes I know they don't block LOS but they do cause leadership priority, like you said. And you know what, its not that bad considering that it just saved my pf's from getting shot at and if it moved it makes the hits glancing.

he got unlucky. most troops have quite high ld.

sorry DN, i wasn't refering to his ld check failing, i was saying if he's aiming for ship then he leaves the pf's alone.

once again, sorry for the misinformation
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