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The Tau'va in M42 and beyond
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Old 11 Dec 2005, 21:07   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default The Tau'va in M42 and beyond

Hi!

I cooked this up in a thread at the Gemeral 40K board, it seemed like a good piece to start a new thread with here, where it won't get buried in a long post about a different topic!


I think that there are a few issues at hand that need to be clarified regarding the Kor'vattra and the potential technological avenues which may one day be open to the Empire. (Not to mention the tenuous nature of the Imperium's presence - aside from a few strongpoints such as Ultramar and Kar Duniash - east of the galactic core...)

Firstly, the Kor'vattra still has a lot of development to go through yet, but by the time of the Third Sphere Campaign much of the disparity in technology between them and the Imperial Navy had been rectified - indeed the Tau have advancements in certain areas when compared to your average Imperial starship. The Hero cruiser has been a highly successful example of the ability of the Empire to construct a powerful, capable warship, able to face its Imperial equivalents on generally fair terms (the Tau starship combat philosophy continues to prefer the ability to overlap fire arcs into an effective forward strike - plus a large dose of their advanced missiles and deadly Manta Missile Destroyers - which in the hands of a skilled Kor'el can allow a lar'shi to match the broadside-focussed Navy cruisers).

Of course, your average Tau fleet as seen in Armada is still stuck with the older generation Explorer and Merchant vessels, but for those looking to see a Tau fleet more closely matching the warships of the major races, the Kor'or'vesh initiative has produced the Kor'vattra Qath'fannor - the Commerce Protection Fleet (ie the beautiful resin starships from Forgeworld). Led by the new battleship of the Tau fleet, the Or'es El'leath (Custodian):



This new fleet has enabled a significant advancement in the spaceborne capabilities of the Empire's space fleet. Not only are these starships able to Warp dive for longer periods - and at faster velocities - they are far more capable of holding their own in close quarters combat against enemy warships - retaining the ability to overlap their fire arcs to deadly effect, integrating more advanced systems into their basic design - and showing off at the 'Pretty Ships M42' parties...

Of course, the Qath'fannor is still only gradually entering wide-scale deployment into the Kor'vattra as a whole, curently being concentrated in the defence of First Phase Septs and in the most strategically vital new systems of the expanding Empire, but over the next centuries, when these vessels become the mainstay of the Kor'vattra, the venerable Gal'leath is eventually retired and the Il'fannor returned to its original duties of heavy transport, scoffing at the overall tech level of the Tau fleet will be less excusable a proposition!

(And let's not forget the Empire's friends among the Bentu'sin - with Commerce Vessels which, generally, laugh at the relatively primitive ships of the Imperium...)



Regarding the supposed 'limitations' of Tau Warp dive technology, the Empire has already worked to turn this drive system into an advantage - indeed, into the basis for the links which bind the tau'va together. Unlike the Warp drive system used by many other galactic races, the Warp dive has freed the Tau from concerns over such minor problems as Geller Fields, time-dilating weirdnesses (no Tau ship has to fear being trapped in another realm, possibly forever, like the ships of other races do...), daemonic possession, the need for some Astronomican-like beacon, the concern over having to introduce a dangerous psionic gene which even the Tau could see has rather large negative consequences...

Besides, we don't yet know exactly how limited in terms of distances or dive durations capable in a Warp dive - presumably because no other race has explicitly been stated as having operated it for such a long period of time - and who knows, perhaps the Demiurg travel between the stars using a far more advanced form of Warp dive, capable of keeping the ship in long dives spanning hundreds of light-years...

Regarding the issue of FTL communication, the Tau have adapted by establishing their message boat and Waystation system between their worlds, as well as ensuring that every major colony they found is planned to be self-sustaining and capable of providing for its own defence - as well as coming to the aid of others. (The Qath'fannor has enabled the Tau to dramatically increase their rapid-response ability), plus a message boat doesn't have to worry about the fickle tides of the Warp - or the null field generated by the Hive Mind - when sending a message from one world to another.

(Again, I'd bet that the Demiurg have some non-psyker means of FTL, or that the Tau will figure something out themselves)

And regarding the other races in the galaxy, at least one (and probably others) has figured out an advanced FTL system which circumvents the Immaterium entirely - the Necrontyr. Who, by the way, most certainly do exist... We have no idea how far the ancient scientific advancements of the old Necrontyr needed to go to figure out the first primitive versions of the Inertialess Drive, what kind of FTL communication system they possess (if, indeed, they have any such system in the first place), what kind of energy source or fancy physics were required to figure it out, whether there have been other races not fleshed out so far in the 40K galaxy who have used - or indeed, currently use - any ind of similar system if interstellar travel.

It's quite possible that what we see in the Necron fleet is merely the end result of millennia of development - back when the Necrontyr were still a living, (uncomfortably) breathing race - of principles which could conceivably be adopted by a race with no attachment to the Warp, suitable exposure to existing proofs of concept - ie Necron starships - and a large, smart and motivated group of scientists and engineers to eventually work out the basics. Someday.

On the issue of capturing, or attempting to pilot, a Navy or Astartes starship (and the fluff has indicated that more than one Navy capital ship has been... acquired by the Kor'vattra), the Tau are not stupid enough to try and switch on its Warp engines. Indeed, the whole reaon why they developed Warp dive technology a thousand years ago is that they can't enter the Warp at all, nor would they want to! Instead, they'd tow their new prize to Fal'shia or Bor'kan, take the thing apart, reverse-engineering every useful system on the ship. If they decided not to keep the ship for further study and wanted to put it to good use, they'd then replace, or modify, the Warp drive into a dive engine, reconstruct the ship as one more easily supported by Tau infrastructure (replace launch bays with ones designed to carry Barracudas and Mantas, swap lances and weapon batteries with Railguns and Ion Cannon - or modily the existing weapons to carry Tau-manufactured munitions, as done with Kroot weaponry - modily torp launchers to fire Tau guided missiles, automate its systems to remove the need for all of those manual labourers and so forth... not to mention cleaning the filthy thing out from stem to stern, and integrating Tau recycling and Windo-drone teams to keep the ship sanitary!)

And if you tried to tell a Tau that the ship facing his or her Lar'shi or Lar'shi'vre had to use expendable slave labourers to load torpedo tubes and fire lance batteries, was infested with rats and slime, was so unruly above the officers' decks that the crew was usually divided and exploited by ruthless gang leaders, whose crewmembers needed dangerous narcotics to steel themselves for combat, whose officers use ancient parchments to navigate some strange nether-realm, whose so-called engineers mumble prayers and litanies at their systems, with no true understanding of the technology at work on board the vessel, and I would imagine that he or she would laugh in your face if you implied that the Navy were nore advanced than the Kor'vattra!

And in any event, while the Imperium has nowhere to go but down, the Kor'vre would know that now is the dawn of the Tau's time in the greater galaxy.

Remember that in the eastern Ultima Segmentum and the Eastern Fringe, most human - and a whole lot of alien - worlds are not part of the Imperium. Many of these systems are only known to the Ordo Xenos as a name on an old star chart, and in many cases not even then. This far from the Astronomican, far from the Segmentum stronghold of Kar Duniash, far from the bulk of the Imperium, far from the ever-looming threat of the Eye of Terror, far from the carnage of Armageddon, far from the encroachment of Hive Fleet Leviathan, far from the immedaite concerns to Ultramar - which is much too focussed on Kraken, Charadon et al to crusade around the Fringe - reside a lot of potential member worlds and colony sites for the Tau Empire, who are not in the least limited by the restrictions on travel or contact beyond its borders the Imperium places on anyone who isn't a Rogue Trader.

Warp diving allows the Tau to ignore the shortcomings of interstellar travel which dog the Imperium this far from Terra. Since the vast bulk of interstellar travel is not composed of long voyages across the galaxy - even the Navy and Astartes usually stick with system-to-system travel, to reduce the risk of time dilation or compromising of the ship's Geller field - and so the Tau are only lacking in comparison to the Imperium in terms of their Segmentum-scale strategic ability, which will a) not concern the Tau for a while, as they will continue their gradual, systematic colonisation/expansion policy they have successfully handled already and b) could well develop a more advanced diving technology (if they could hold a ship in a dive for a 3-500 LY distance, and keep the recharge time below a Ro'taa, that ability would be enough to make the support of their expansion into the Eastern Fringe a far less problematic proposition, as well as allow a more developed level of message boat communications between Septs in an expanded Tau Empire)

Also, the Imperium have the Black Legion on Cadia, the largest Waaagh! on record on Armageddon, the largest Hive Fleet in the galaxy on their doorstep, a bloated and woefully inept bureaucracy mostly imcapable of the task it takes upon itself to fulfil, and a large blind spot in its intel and assets east and north of Ultramar - ripe for the Empire to thrive in.

The carefully constructed systems developed by the Tau have resulted in a system which is far less dependent on centralised government, or on the fickle tides of the Empyrean - which will allow the Tau Empire to avoid, or at least have a greate chance of managing, the kind of crises which brought the old human realns to their knees.

In terms of other alien threats, Kraken has had the wind knocked out of its sails at Iyanden and Ichar IV, the Orks are in no shape to stir up too much trouble - and would sooner fight the humies on Armour-Geddem than the blue-skinned shooty boyz - and the likes of the Necrons and DE are not too pushed about the Tau, it seems (the Druchii would find the Tau poor sacrifices, with such a miniscule Warp presence)

The Kroot, Nicasar, Vespids and Tau-allied humans are already on board, the Demiurg have remained a strong associate and ally (the Demiurg contributed significantly to the development of the Kor'or'vesh), the Alaitoc seem to have some interest - or at least a sense of indifference - to this dynamic young race, and the other Craftworlds are mostly too wrapped up in their own affairs to care all that much!


The Dark Millennium of M42 is uniquely placed to see the Tau take great strides on the path to beoming a galactic superpower - for the greater good of all sentient races who choose to appreciate the virtue, or at least accept the existence, of the Tau'va.


And regarding numbers, in terms of the Tau Empie compared to the current (001.M42) major factions: Do the Tau attempt to exterminate the populations of worlds they add to the Empire? No. Do they ever try - and even successfully - to influence the planetary governor of a world they are interested in? Yes. Do they have hordes of humans rising against their rule in the Damocles colonies, or in the Third Ephere worlds? No. Are the Tau limited to Imperial worlds as avenues of conquest and expansion? No. Is Ultramar really more populous then the Tau Empire? No - Ultramar comprises of eight inhabited worlds - seven, since Prandium was consumed by Behemoth - compared to the 130+ of the Tau Empire. Have the Tau ever actually threatened the major Imperial centres of power in the Segmentum directly? No. And if I were an Aun on T'au, I'd counsel a continuation of this policy towards the Gue'la!

By the time the Tau will even consider having a go at larger chunks of the Imperium in the Segmentum, they will already have increased their size significantly - maybe to a thousand worlds, or ten thousand - and maybe even then they would see little benefit in inciting full-scale war with the Imperium. Remember, the Tau aren't stupid, and there are plenty of worlds in the Eastern Fringe and Ultima Segmentum to explore/conquer/colonise beyond Imperial boundaries.

You're also missign my point regarding a Navy ship's Warp drive compared to a Tau Warp dive. We don't yet know what the upper limit of Warp dive capabilities are (and perhaps races like the Demiurg have mastered long-range diving) and for the next thousand years at least, the Tau don't need to outpace a Navy ship - they just need to be fast enough to expand the Empire and respond to external threats.

And that map of the Segmentum is highly misleading - remember that the Imperium only occupies at best 1 out of every 1000 inhabitable star systems in the galaxy - and despite this, claims the rest of the galaxy as belonging to the Emperor! The map you see shows the official Segmentum boundaries, but the actual number, and location, of Imperial planets is far more widely scattered, thousands of tiny pinpricks, clustered near the core and the other Segmentae, with the number and concentration of Imperial systems rapidly fading as you move east of the core. Near the Empire, relatively speaking, the only real place of strength in the Segmentum is Ultramar - and the Tau aren't stupid enough to confront it directly when there is a lot more of the Eastern Fringe to expand into.

And about those numbers? If the Imperium deployed the force required to crush the Empire, they'd lose Cadia - and Terra would be wide open to Abbadon. Or, they'd lose Armageddon, and Terra would be wide open to Ghagzhkull. Or they could fail to contain Leviathan - and have a guess what happens next...

And the only reason why those who dismiss the human experience in the Tau Empire as a future option for humankind is (conveniently) simple xenophobia on the Imperium's part - the short-sighted belief that humans, indeed any other race, must always rely only on themselves, and not the greater good of the galaxy at large.



Thoughts?



Gary
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Old 11 Dec 2005, 21:22   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: The Tau'va in M42 and beyond

??? ???

do you think you can summarize your point a wee bit, cause i got a little lost as I was reading.

no offence meant
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Old 11 Dec 2005, 21:39   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Tau'va in M42 and beyond

Hey, I just noticed that at one part I wrote Tau Empie!

Mmm... Pie!


Hee hee.


EDIT: Sorry, I'll try and summarize the points for you, mon ami!


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Old 11 Dec 2005, 22:08   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Tau'va in M42 and beyond

Les tartes sont booon!


Still working out that abridged version...


Gary
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Old 11 Dec 2005, 22:25   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Tau'va in M42 and beyond

He he Weebl and Bob.
I think he was talking about now is truly the Tau's time. Nerroth basically said that the tau can expand their empire without threat of the Imperium because the foces it would take to take out the Tau would destroy the empire. Also the Imperium is fighting Chaos in Cadia and the Orks in Ammagedon (spelling???). and i can't foget laviethan ciutting through the middle of humanity. All that means that by the time the Imperium can pay attention to the Tau they would be too powerful too costly to really destroy. Also the Tau don't have the problem with warp travel due to the fact that warp doesn't affect them so they can travel further faster. Is that right Nerroth??
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Old 11 Dec 2005, 22:47   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Tau'va in M42 and beyond

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crisis 541
He he Weebl and Bob.
I think he was talking about now is truly the Tau's time. Nerroth basically said that the tau can expand their empire without threat of the Imperium because the foces it would take to take out the Tau would destroy the empire. Also the Imperium is fighting Chaos in Cadia and the Orks in Ammagedon (spelling???). and i can't foget laviethan ciutting through the middle of humanity. All that means that by the time the Imperium can pay attention to the Tau they would be too powerful too costly to really destroy. Also the Tau don't have the problem with warp travel due to the fact that warp doesn't affect them so they can travel further faster. Is that right Nerroth??
Okay, Armageddon is over and the 13th black crusade was beaten back. And the Imperium's warp travel is a lot faster that the Tau's warp diving.
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Old 11 Dec 2005, 23:33   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Tau'va in M42 and beyond

OK, to boil down the gist of my points:

*We don't know how far Dive engine technology can go in terms of distance or velocity - we don't even know what speeds or distances the Hero or the CPF can travel now, let alone in the tau'cyr to come. I would wager that the Demiurg may well have a highly advanced version of dive engines already - which allow them to travel across the Segmentum unimpeded by the fickle tides of the Warp - and even if they don't, the Tau could well be the pioneers in terms of showing how far the tech can go.

*Likewise, we don't know what it takes to develop even a primitive version of an inertialess drive - or even how one operates - but the proof of ceoncept exists in the Necrontyr fleet (who had to work it all out for themselves back in the day, when they were still living and wheezing...) Perhaps in M43 or M45 the Fio on Fal'shia or Bor'kan will figure something out, and by then the enhanced Dive engines may make such a discovery less urgent than one might believe...

*The Tau will eventually (over the next centuries) phase out their older ships from front line service and switch to the Qath'fannor - which itself will likely see upgrades and refinements over the centuries - so the overall capabilities of the Tau Empire in ship-to-ship combat and strategic deployment will increase dramatically. Plus, the Demiurg ships scoff at the Imperial Navy's standards of shipbuilding...

*Dive tech has been a major boon for the Tau - it has allowed them to develop consistent interstellar travel times (vital for a race without FTL comms), spawned the advent of Waystations and message boats, protected them from the perils of the Warp - and ensured that the Tau ensure their Septs are self-sufficient, while remaining mutually supportive of one another (the latter capability has been significantly improved with the Qath'fannor's advent)

*The Tau would sooner reverse-engineer and intensely study any captured Astartes or Navy ship, and possibly choose to modify it to be supported by Kor'vattra infrastructure (replacing the launch bays, modifying weapon batteries to fire Tau rounds - akin to the Tau modifications of Kroot weaponry - and the conversion or replacement of the Warp drive to a dive system, and so forth).

*Despite the Imperium's repulsion of the first phase of the new war on Armageddon, the war has become a large nad bitter war of attrition, drawing Orks from across the Segmentum to fight at the Ragna-Ork, on the world they call 'Armour-Geddem', on which they already outnumber humans by thirty to one.

*Despite the Imperial Navy's success against the Chaos warfleets in Segmentum Obscuras, much of Cadia lies in Chaos hands, and Chaos possesses the upper hand on the surface of worlds across the region (and the Orks have claimed many new prizes in Skar'uz, as well) and the Imperium is still in dire straits against the Despoiler's latest invasion. (Plus if the pylons on Cadia are lost, much of the rest of Obscuras will go with them, into an enlarged Eye of Terror)

*Despite the diversion of Leviathan into Ork space, the larges Hive Fleet in the galaxy still poses a very serious threat to Segmentum Solar, against which no level of cpmpacency can be afforded by the High Lords.

*Despite the Tau Empire possessing (at present) roughly 135 worlds, compared to the roughly one million in the Imperium, the latter realm cannot afford to decisively strike the Tau'va without compromising one of their far more crucial campaigns - and although Cadia is not the only world between Abaddon and Terra, it is by far the most heavily defenced, the route to Terra would be relatively open for the Traitor Legions if Cadia burns.

*There are a hell of a lot of star systems in the eastern Ultima Segmentum and Eastern Fringe which lie beyind the Imperium's comtrol, systems where the Empire can expand without directly confronting the strongholds at Kar Duniash and Ultramar, and the Imperium's hold in this distant region of the galaxy is, outside these local bastions, tenuous at best (most Imperial-held systems are west of the galactic core, the actual number, and location, of Imperial planets is far more widely scattered than implied on Imperial charts. Think of them as thousands of tiny pinpricks, with the number and concentration of Imperial systems rapidly fading as you move further east)

*In terms of other alien threats, Kraken has had the wind knocked out of its sails at Iyanden and Ichar IV, the Orks are in no shape to stir up too much trouble - and would sooner fight the humies on Armour-Geddem than the blue-skinned shooty boyz - and the likes of the Necrons and DE are not too pushed about the Tau, it seems (the Druchii would find the Tau poor sacrifices, with such a miniscule Warp presence)

*The Kroot, Nicassar, Vespids and Tau-allied humans are already on board, the Demiurg have remained a strong associate and ally (the Demiurg contributed significantly to the development of the Kor'or'vesh), the Alaitoc seem to have some interest - or at least a sense of indifference - to this dynamic young race, and the other Craftworlds are mostly too wrapped up in their own affairs to care all that much!


*In short, the Dark Millennium (M42) at hand for the Imperium will, for the Tau Empire, be the Ko'vash Chi'tau'cyr - the thousand tau'cyr of growth, of advancement, of success, of the advancement along the path to becoming a galactic superpower, for the greater good of those who either sign up with the Empire, or agree to maintain neutrality - with perhaps some sort of mutual trade deal (as explained in BFG Armada)...

That help?


Gary
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Old 12 Dec 2005, 00:32   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Tau'va in M42 and beyond

Do the tau actually call the Demiurg the Bentu'sin, or is that your own invention?

Who else knows where Bentu'sin comes from (hint: all thats added is a ' somewhere and an "n" at the end
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Old 12 Dec 2005, 00:37   #9 (permalink)
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There are no more orks on armageddon, save for feral ones in the jungles at the planets poles.

One million worlds in the Imperium? There are tons more than that.
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But seriously, a Guardsman, I'm willing to bet, could a) outshoot me, b) give me the beating of my life, and c) shove more squad-based tactics down my throat than I'd ever care to digest. Guard are hard, hard men. Whether or not GW's inconsistent, Marine-worshipping fluff keeps with that, mkay?

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Old 12 Dec 2005, 04:08   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Tau'va in M42 and beyond

Good posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legio mortis
There are no more orks on armageddon, save for feral ones in the jungles at the planets poles.
Could you quote a source for that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by legio mortis
One million worlds in the Imperium?* There are tons more than that.
Yes, but they can hardly defend the ones that they have. With the black Templar and other imperial forces pushing the empire's borders ever further, it will become more and more difficult for them to defend themselves.
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