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The most effective way to deal death.. ( Weight of fire power or Ap shots?)
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Old 08 Dec 2005, 20:46   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default The most effective way to deal death.. ( Weight of fire power or Ap shots?)

In you guys experiences which do you prefere to do? To have alot of pulse shots, and carbine shots, with some low AP shots ( In other words, Alot of Fire warriors, more than two sqauds, and few heavy weapon choices? ) OR do you prefer To have few Pulse shots and alot of heavy fire power? ( Two sqauds of fire warriors, and Emphasize on heavy weapons, for example, you have a Shas'o commander, Two Crisis teams, All three of your heavy support choices are filled, etc. ) This is not a Flame or a flame war. I just want to know what you prefer.

I'll start, Me I prefer to have alot of pulse shots. I use four sqauds of Fire warriors and a stealth team is my prefered elites.
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Old 08 Dec 2005, 21:28   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: The most effective way to deal death.. ( Weight of fire power or Ap shots?)

well lets assume everything hits and causes a wound, and we are shooting at a terminator. 1 plasma shot will kill the termy, call it 65 points from a FK. it will take 6 5/5 shots to force the termy to fail his save, coming from fire warriors or xv-15's that would be 60 points. And the FW / xv-15 will also have better luck vs hordes.

I think the only time low ap pays for itself is with long range low rof weaps vs their intended targets. ie ion cannon, or seeker missile, or rail rifles, vs meq. because these are long range weapons they are expensive and do not have a huge volume of fire, therefore to get your points worth you need to bust the armor save of your target, otherwise enough of the damage will be negated to offset the points spent for the weapon.

in the case of a rail gun it is not worth shooting at meq or even termies, because the rate of fire has come down and the cost of the weapon has increased even further to get the ap-1.

Ap-1 matters to me because of the auto penetrate on vehicle armor. and you need some plasma around to deal with pesky zoanthroapes ,because of their 2 wounds, and some other stuff for other reasons. If i had to make a guess i would say that i devote about 22.5% of my anti-infantry points to low ap weapons, the rest is more economically spent on volume.

unless of course you are tooling up for a bunch of termies > in that case, we are tau and we can set up to do bust some armor saves.

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Old 08 Dec 2005, 22:07   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: The most effective way to deal death.. ( Weight of fire power or Ap shots?)

With Tau I much prefer the 'Volume of shots' to the Negating Saves' option. Crisis Suits are cool, but they are best suited for a particular purpose. Be this anti-Meq or whatever. The point is, with Tau, the places where we can have our low AP weaponry are not exactly the most common. So Crisis Suits seem the obvious choice.. lets tool them up with Plasma/Fusion. But that leaves us with masses of Firewarriors, something I'm not too keen of.

With Tau, you are able to put out a lot of Strength 5 firepower and thats what counts. Ilove Stealth Teams. They are just great. If you need some Low AP weaponry, think to yourself "maybe I could just make him force a few more saves, maybe that'll do". With Firewarriors this is possible, but I wouldnt rely on them,especially after the first few turns, especially if they aren't mechanized....

Volume of Firepower is important for Tau, and Stealth Suits are an excellent way to accomplish this. Tau are not good at negating everyones saves, unlike Las/Plas heavy marines. If you playing people with 4+ or worse saves, then it gets even easier to force them to fail saves with volume of firepower.

Cheers, hope that helps.
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Old 08 Dec 2005, 22:28   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: The most effective way to deal death.. ( Weight of fire power or Ap shots?)

A mechanized force with about 33% of the firepower invested in heavy weapons for me. the rest is volume of fire (even missile pods count as volume weapons; ap needs to be 3 or less to count as armor penetrating.)
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Old 08 Dec 2005, 22:40   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: The most effective way to deal death.. ( Weight of fire power or Ap shots?)

It really depends on who I'm facing. But as a rule of thumb for me my Crisis are usually tooled in some variation of helios. I love my stealths, so they're in just about every army I make. I try not to go for too much of either type, although against hordes such as Nids and IG I will use lots of saturation pulse fire for obvious reasons. I do love denying my opponent the ablity to use his armour, it's much more foefilling to watch him pick up 2/3 of his heaviest troops each turn.
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Old 08 Dec 2005, 22:49   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: The most effective way to deal death.. ( Weight of fire power or Ap shots?)

The idea is not to choose: It's obvious that if you pour enough 5/5 shots into a terminator, it's going to die. That said, why waste your time?

Quote:
well lets assume everything hits and causes a wound, and we are shooting at a terminator. 1 plasma shot will kill the termy, call it 65 points from a FK. it will take 6 5/5 shots to force the termy to fail his save, coming from fire warriors or xv-15's that would be 60 points. And the FW / xv-15 will also have better luck vs hordes.
THis example is pretty bad.

Firstly, it takes way more than 6 5/5 shots there, to kill a Terminator. 6 shots=3 hits =2 wounds. He's not going to fail either of the saves. Multiply that by 3 to force ONE termie to fail his save. That's a full squad and a half to kill ONE terminator. Imagine having five coming after you; that would take up more or less your entire troops selection.

Then pretend he's also got OTHER troops in his army.

Now say you're using a Crisis suit with a fusion gun. A TL fusion gun will kill a termie about 70% of the time, and while it sucks getting close, we can also get farther away with JSJ. (By the way, a Crisis suit with a TL fusion gun costs about 55 points. I don't know where you got 65.) In a squad of 9 Terminators, a squad of three anti-Termie/Tank crisis suits will probably kill three, and perhaps a dedicated barrage from a Stealth squad will kill one more. Then, hopefully, you book it with the Crisis suits back behind some cover, or pray for good rolls next turn. That's about half strength in one turn, for the cost of one or maybe two elites selections. The rest of your units are free to do whtaever they want.

If you have those same 9 Terminators coming at your FW lines, and you pour every ounce of firepower you have into them, and you're maxed out on FWs, you'll probably kill about 7. Maybe even all 9 if you're lucky. But then things like "his other units" will come and pound you while you were foolish enough to do that.

Crisis suits are great for isolating important elements of an enemy army and destroying them utterly. I don't know if I'd use them as an all-purpose marine killer (though the thought has passed through my skull a few times), but using them to kill command squads or harass Terminators IS a great idea, as is using them to kill tanks. They are EXTREMELY specialized infantry; you just get to choose the specialization is all.

And while overspecializing is dangerous, overgeneralizing like you do when you don't specialize at ALL is equally dangerous.

Quote:
A mechanized force with about 33% of the firepower invested in heavy weapons for me. the rest is volume of fire (even missile pods count as volume weapons; ap needs to be 3 or less to count as armor penetrating.)
This is an excellent ratio, I'd say. Well done.
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Old 08 Dec 2005, 23:17   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: The most effective way to deal death.. ( Weight of fire power or Ap shots?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vega62a

Firstly, it takes way more than 6 5/5 shots there, to kill a Terminator. 6 shots=3 hits =2 wounds.* He's not going to fail either of the saves. Multiply that by 3 to force ONE termie to fail his save. That's a full squad and a half to kill ONE terminator.* Imagine having five coming after you; that would take up more or less your entire troops selection.
my mistake, didn't take the time to work it out. thanks for taking the time to clear it up vega
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Old 08 Dec 2005, 23:31   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: The most effective way to deal death.. ( Weight of fire power or Ap shots?)

No problem. It happens. Better that it happen now then when you sit down at a table <3 Glad I could help.
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Old 09 Dec 2005, 05:23   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: The most effective way to deal death.. ( Weight of fire power or Ap shots?)

Did you even bother to read bluespruce's premise before telling him he's full of rabbit pellets?

Quote:
well lets assume everything hits and causes a wound, and we are shooting at a terminator. 1 plasma shot will kill the termy, call it 65 points from a FK.
Those two sentences, the very first two in his whole post, arranged together for your convenience, cover pretty much every objection you had:

1. He wasn't saying 6 pulse shots would kill a termie. He was sayin 6 pulse wounds would kill a termie.

2. He was assuming that the crisis suit involved was a fireknife....gee, maybe that's where he got 65 points from? Your counter-example of a sunforge suit is laughable...which suit is more likely to appear in a take-all-comers list?



Oh, and you've shot yourself in the foot with this argument:

Quote:
If you have those same 9 Terminators coming at your FW lines, and you pour every ounce of firepower you have into them, and you're maxed out on FWs, you'll probably kill about 7. Maybe even all 9 if you're lucky. But then things like "his other units" will come and pound you while you were foolish enough to do that.
First of all, if he's fielded 9 terminators, that's 450 or more points in one squad. If you fire everything at them for one turn and destroy them, you've taken out 1/3 of his army in a single turn....I'd say that's quite a desirable result...

Second, anyone (other than deathwing) who fields a block of 9 terminators is counting on them to win the game for him. You've just ignored his supporting forces for a single turn to demolish the main effort. Again, kudos!

Third, a block that large will most likely be deepstriking, as it's too large to deliver by landraider. You have no choice but to kill it before it's allowed to charge. the one free turn of shooting that it gets will be bad enough.



That said, there were some things in your post that I agree with:

Quote:
And while overspecializing is dangerous, overgeneralizing like you do when you don't specialize at ALL is equally dangerous.
True.

Quote:
Crisis suits are great for isolating important elements of an enemy army and destroying them utterly.
Absolutely. I use mine to demolish an incoming assault force, be it jet-packing marines or just about anything in a transport.


Quote:
A mechanized force with about 33% of the firepower invested in heavy weapons for me. the rest is volume of fire (even missile pods count as volume weapons; ap needs to be 3 or less to count as armor penetrating.)
Let's see...at 1500 points, 3 hammerheads will take up about 28% of that allowance, leaving points for maybe 2 crisis suits. Throw in the points required to mount your firewarriors, and you've got maybe 50% of your points invested in "volume weapons"....but keep in mind that most of these volume weapons are going to be bottled up inside devilfish for much of the game. Truly mechanized forces put out an extremely low volume of volume fire. They are more dependent on AP fire than hybrid and static forces...and that's ok, because they are more mobile, and therefore at less risk.

At the other extreme, Static armies rely very heavilly on volume of fire to do the job for them. With zero hammerheads, they not only have an additional 20% of their points freed up for the purchase of additional weapons, they aren't bottling any of their weapons up inside a transport. Since static armies have pretty much abandoned mobility for the sake of firepower, they would be foolish to fritter away large chunks of points on expensive AP weapons. The static Ideal (to me) would be 9 broadsides, one team of pathfinders, and 72 firewarriors...and an HQ of some sort, depending on points you have left. 72 30" S5 shots per turn will overcome any infantry the enemy cares to field, while 9 broadsides are enough to swat any number of vehicles he can field, in any AV. The pathfinders (new rules) are there to make the most dangerous infantry unit die more quickly, boosting the BS of 24 firewarriors to 5, or (in the case of the 9 terminators) 48 of them to BS4.

Hybrid must find a happy medium. Too many AP weapons and you quickly go from a take-all-comers army to a take-all-deathwing army and get slaughtered by the first horde that comes along. Too few AP weapons and you have some extremely tough targeting choices to make (kill some of the terminators or kill all of the stormtroopers?).

Overall, I look at it this way. Pulse weaponry is adequate (not great, but adequate) for killing marines. And it's cheap. And it's fantastic at killing anything weaker than these supersoldiers. On the other hand, AP weaponry is ideal for killing marines...and not much else, due to its points cost. So, if you want a "take all marines" list, sure, go ahead and take 15 crisis suits sporting 30 plasma guns. But you'll hate yourself the first time you face IG...or nids...or eldar...or, or, or. With volume of fire weapons, you can get by against 3+ saves. With AP weapons, you're screwed against hordes. My advice? Take one crisis suit for every 300 points...max. Personally, I take 4 of them in a 1500 point hybrid army.
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Old 09 Dec 2005, 05:54   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: The most effective way to deal death.. ( Weight of fire power or Ap shots?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by march10k
The pathfinders (new rules) are there to make the most dangerous infantry unit die more quickly, boosting the BS of 24 firewarriors to 5, or (in the case of the 9 terminators) 48 of them to BS4.
What new rules are you referring to? Were they in white dwarf?
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