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New player with questions on HQs and army list.
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Old 21 Nov 2005, 16:26   #1 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default New player with questions on HQs and army list.

Why do people use Shas'els and not Shas'o
Mathematically I found it was best to either stick with normal crisis suits and take more or take the sha'os as the incraese in cost for +1bs on shasel was not as effective as taking shas'o for +2bs..

Fireknife combos on different suits cost:
crisis=65, 1.5 hits (43.4pts per hit)
Shas'el=85 2 hits (42.5pts per hit)
Shas'o=110 2.5hits (44pts per hit)

So obviously there are different tactical uses (Helios is more reliable on a shas'o, will hit when you take the risk and get within 6" of a tank, when you really need the hit)

Also the HQ suits get more wounds on them (better HtH skills are there also but considering the o fights aswell as 2 kroot I am not impressed)

Anyway I was just wondering why so many people take the Shas'el over the o, being a new player to tau I see the bs5 as a nice thing aswell as the extra wound, even if I am instakilled just as easily.

Also I have seen some people save a few points by taking a el with tl plasma and fusion, comes out 10pts cheaper than the o with slightly better plasma fire (bout 6% better, yet 20% worse fusion fire) is this just to save 10pts?

Cheers for all the answers, I have just bought some 2nd hand tau and have not yet completed any army list so I have lots of quistions.

Atm I own.
5 crisis
1 broadside
2 hammerhead
30 FWs
20+ Drones
70+ kroot (I like kroot, but more so in DE/Chaos allies lists than with tau, need that evicerator! and merc upgrades for shaper)

Atm I am not really into FWs tbh, I much prefer stealths! I would love to get my hands on 12-18 of the things!
This I find funny because when I first looked at the tau dex I didnt like stealths at all! I thought to myself why would I take stealths over 3 FWs??? well now I think why the heck would I EVER want ANY FWs when I can take either stealths OR drones, both of which I prefer over FWs.

I think I will put up my proposed armylist in the armylist section instead of here.

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Old 21 Nov 2005, 16:43   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: New player with quistions on HQs and armylist.

most people go for volume, the extra 25 points could be spent on HH upgrades, FW, or seeker missiles. i on the other hand use a Shas'O helios config all the time, deep striking with a full group of drones works wonders. my style of play puts just enough power where needed to cripple the enemy, most of the local players use mobile armys so my Shas'O helios is a monster, taking out termie and landraider alike.

i can remember one time i DS behind a landraider blowing it sky high and sending a hole mess of SM pooring out, they tried to get my Shas'O with lascannons but failed there test and only killed one drone and i jumped away.
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Old 21 Nov 2005, 16:50   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: New player with quistions on HQs and armylist.

Well firstly people like taking the el over the o for fluff reasons. The Shas'O is a supreme commander of large forces, rare indeed. I take one because it fits my play style and the fluff of my army. Helios is best on the Shas'O while I find that twin liked missil pods and a fusion blaster works well on a shas'el and for regular suits well there are a plethora of things they can do.

As for Firewarriors, I dont know how you could not like these guys. Our basic troops have the best standard issue weapon in the game. You just cannot beat str 5 ap 5 with a nice 30" range, most if not all other weapons on basic infantry are around str 4 ap 6 with a 24" range. Ours is better in all respects. Plus we also get a nice 4+ save. True this is not power armor but it is the kind of thing only the most elite of troops in other armies get, storm troopers and aspect warriors to name a few and it comes standard issue. Stealths on the other hand get 3 shots at 3 times the price of the Firewarrior, infiltrate and get a jet pack and a 3+ save. Lots of people love these guys but I personally do not. They are few in number and anti infantry duty is best left to the cheaper and bigger bulk of Firewarriors. When pressured with close range Firewarriors can double their firepower, stealths cannot do this. Firewarriors can purchase one of the best transports in the game to skoot off when threatened, stealths cannot do this. Stealth suits are good yes, but you really should not relly on them and using so many of them just does not work. The last player I saw that used a large number of suits lost every game. Some stealths are excelent for early harrasement, adding fire support to infiltrating kroot and getting into table quarters early.

Drones on the other hand also have a shorter range than the Firwarriors, a much shorter range. 12" is a whole foot. Their BS is terrible, at 2 it means you need 5s to hit. Twin linked helps this a lot but still on average they will hit as well as a Firewarrior and have the chance to pin. Though they are also few in number, more expencive and much shorter range aswell as less shots.

Do not really consider close combat when looking at the Tau. Just forget about it completely because you really do not want to do it at all. Tau are bloody awefull in close combat and they are supposed to be. The only reason the Shas'O is even decent is decades of skill and experience. I like it when my Shas'O crushes a death cult assasine in close combat but I am not happy he got there in the first place. Just try and avoid close combat all together.

Now I am not saying that you should not take drones or stealth suits. But these units are short ranged and expencive and they will lower the model count in your army without really making up for it in firepower. Every time I see a player relly on stealths or drones its bad news, every time. A single squadron of gun drones is very nice for supporting battlesuits and a single unit of stealths works extremely well at pounding the enemy while the rest of the jet pack units catch up. 2 units of drones is sometimes worth it such as for defending a large static firebase or minimized to skim around and get table quarters and objectives but 2 untis of stealths really eats up points in an army and starts to lower their effect.

Just like many units in every army they are excelent when used in the right numbers but their effect does not increase exponentially with their numbers. Instead their efficiency just starts to drop when their numbers get too high. It is a balance between all the units in your army that makes it worth it. You are looking purely at stat lines, this is ok but you need to realize there is more than just 3+ save and assault 3 to consider when choosing the units for your army. Each unit in the Tau army must support each other and I warn you getting so close as to make stealths effective is dangerous, especially with large numbers of them. They run out of room to maneuver very, very quickly. The same goes for crisis suits, too many just becomes a points sink and detriments your army. You just simply run out of terrain for them to operate around.

EDITE: OH MycrimsonTEARS, I think when you refere to a leadership check you are saying that they took a leadership test to try and shoot your Shas'O. If he was not accompanied by a bodyguard or drones and a drone was between him and the marines this is impossible. It is the wonders of the IC status. If he was attatched to the drones well they cannot pick him out anyway.
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Old 21 Nov 2005, 17:13   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: New player with quistions on HQs and armylist.

Vash,

While I agree that a single six-suit unit of stealths is the right number to use, I completely disagree about many things you said about them. You say that stealths lower the model count without compensating for lost firepower. First of all, this is untrue. They have exactly the same number of same strength shots per point, at the same BS, as fire warriors. 30 points of FW and 30 points of stealths both produce 3 BS3 S5 shots. What stealths do is trade 12" of range for the ability to infiltrate plus jet packs, and they trade model count for a higher save and a stealth field. Second, even if they did reduce the model count without producing the same firepower, so what? You can get about 17 firewarriors for a tricked out railhead, yet nobody (except maybe khaldun ) says "railheads are a bad idea because you get one model for the price of seventeen". The same thing applies here. All things in moderation, working together, wins the day.

I can just about guarantee that a 72 firewarrior army will do just as badly as an 18 stealth suit army. Going overboard on one unit type is a bad idea no matter what unit it is. Tau need a balance of many different units to win. Too much of one good thing means no points for other good things. And we need a variety of different good things to defeat the variety of bad things the enemy brings to the table.

So "stealth suits are bad cause then you don't get as many firewarriors" is wrong. "too many stealth suits is bad because it doesn't leave points or slots (in the case of crisis suits) for other needed units" is a much better statement.
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Old 21 Nov 2005, 17:22   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: New player with quistions on HQs and armylist.

The "stealth suits are bad cause then you don't get as many firewarriors" was never my main argument and if it is it was not my intent. And yes the stealths do not compensate for the Firewarriors. 3 Firewarriors get 3 shots at 30" or 2 at 12 thats 6 possible. 1 stealth always gets 3 at up to 18". The Firewarriors have the possiblitiy of doubling the firepower. Also using the Hammerhead argument is false aswell. I used the stealth and Firewarrior comparison because they have the same strength weapon and would therefore serve much the same purpose in regards to targets. Much the same use at different costes and effects where as the Hammerhead has a completely different purpose. I also never advocated taking 72 Firewarriors. Like I said everything needs moderation. The stealth field and jet pack may make up for some of the Firewarriors numbers but not always. There is no substitute for the bulk of a nice firebase though there is also no need to go overboard.
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Old 21 Nov 2005, 17:55   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: New player with quistions on HQs and armylist.

As for Firewarriors, I dont know how you could not like these guys. Our basic troops have the best standard issue weapon in the game.

Yet kroot are more efficient shooters HarHar (I love kroot and I LOVE that they outshoot tau! though only on ld7)
Though the FWs do have that range advantage but I have yet to see that play out.

anti infantry duty is best left to the cheaper and bigger bulk of Firewarriors.


Mobility though, ability to shoot and hide on stealths is so cool, I suppose its just personal preference, and as I said I used to think well why would I want one 3+ save model when I can have 3 4+ save models!
Still I find the mobility and stealth, not to mention the fact that ap3 weapons are almost all heavy weapons makes stealths live almost as long, take objectives easier...and alot cooler overall.

I used to play horde nids, later went Godzilla nids, these days I like moving around less models.
also immobile guns... Even my nids all moved when firing. Personal preference I guess, I will have to try out the 30" guns though, perhaps they will convince me. Thing is I play alot of tournies and mobility is key!

When pressured with close range Firewarriors can double their firepower, stealths cannot do this. Firewarriors can purchase one of the best transports in the game to skoot off when threatened, stealths cannot do this. Stealth suits are good yes, but you really should not relly on them and using so many of them just does not work. The last player I saw that used a large number of suits lost every game. Some stealths are excelent for early harrasement, adding fire support to infiltrating kroot and getting into table quarters early.

Yea but how often does this happen? and if you rapid fire you better kill the enemy, because your dead the turn after, stealths can run 12" a turn while firing!

I will admit none of my theories are from actual game play, very new to tau, will take them for a field trial on thursday.
Fish of fury is nice but its unlikely the transport FWs shoot more than 6 shots a game far as I can tell, same amount as static FWs.

I do want to try out a devilfish, but chances are I will stick with the 1 unit of 12 I can fit into the fish that fill the compulsory troop slot.

Also I read some batreps and people seem to do good with stealths, as a nid player I never really feared the enemies FWs much tbh. didnt fear the stealths either....well tau in general but hei.

Drones on the other hand also have a shorter range than the Firwarriors, a much shorter range. 12" is a whole foot. Their BS is terrible, at 2 it means you need 5s to hit. Twin linked helps this a lot but still on average they will hit as well as a Firewarrior and have the chance to pin. Though they are also few in number, more expencive and much shorter range aswell as less shots.


Compared to a FW drones have:
+20% cost
+10% accuracy
pinning ASSUALT weapons.
Sure they are not in gun range on turn 1 so that makes them somewhat less effective but again they can run from the enemy while firing which is something I like, also capture table quarters alot easier.

Do not really consider close combat when looking at the Tau. Just forget about it completely because you really do not want to do it at all. Tau are bloody awefull in close combat and they are supposed to be. The only reason the Shas'O is even decent is decades of skill and experience. I like it when my Shas'O crushes a death cult assasine in close combat but I am not happy he got there in the first place. Just try and avoid close combat all together.


Understood, though kroot arent awful for what they cost. esp in cover where they attack first.

Now I am not saying that you should not take drones or stealth suits. But these units are short ranged and expencive and they will lower the model count in your army without really making up for it in firepower.


sure they do, Stealths have the same power as their cost in FWs, drones 90% almost, no big deal, though both can lose shooting turns if infiltrate is not around, drones always lose it unless opponent goes first and moves forward. Pinning does not do much so I might be wrong with drones, but atleast they have init 4 so can take out or tie things up in CC (less likely to take out)

Just like many units in every army they are excelent when used in the right numbers but their effect does not increase exponentially with their numbers.

Well chances are 18 stealths would cost so much anyway that I will settle for 12 but time will tell. A 3rd crisis suit cant hurt.
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Old 21 Nov 2005, 18:15   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: New player with quistions on HQs and armylist.

There are options to the right of each post title. One is reply with quote, another is modify - so you don't have to double post.

Shas'Els with a twinlinked weapon have a higher accuracy than Shas'Os, for a lot less points.
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Old 21 Nov 2005, 18:19   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: New player with quistions on HQs and armylist.

sure they get 88% accuracy with one gun and 66% with the other.
For 12pts less than the same outfit on a sha'o who gets 83.3% and 83.3%. Also has 1 wound less.

Though I see the point of saving the points for something better, also because they are non scoring units lots of points is a bad idea. I am not decided yet.
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Old 21 Nov 2005, 21:33   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: New player with questions on HQs and army list.

It depends if you want two guns to hit decently, or one gun very well. I find the extra stats rarely help, as my commanders are either killed by much more than they could possibly take, or never damaged at all. I like to save the points.
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Old 21 Nov 2005, 22:31   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: New player with questions on HQs and army list.

I prefer a shas'el becaus I can fit two els into my army, but only one O. The two helios els allow me to focus firepower in more locations.
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