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Tau and Cheese
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Old 16 Nov 2005, 16:11   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Tau and Cheese

[size=15pt]Tau and Cheese[/size]

Some people will believe there is no such thing as cheese. This is beside the point. Some people will call your army cheesy no matter what you do, and thus you do have to deal with it. The following tries to address what people will consider cheese.

As you would expect, it is combinations that make an army cheesy. Thus, it gets very complicated. So I'll start as simple as I can, and I will be agressive in order to shorten the bla bla.

So the disclaimer is: if you don't like it, it might be because I'm being too succinct. Plus I mean up to x, not take x or cheesy, and if you read the whole thing, there are exceptions.

Ethereal: Never cheesy.

Crisis suits and commaders: It is generally not cheesy no matter what configurations you take. If anything is going to be cheesy, it would be more than 1 fireknife every 250pts. Single unit crisis suits are very similar to single unit land speeders in terms of cheesiness, 1 is fine, 2 is dodgy up to 1500pts, 3 is cheesy.
A commander is also not considered cheesy no matter the configuration. 2 Shas'el or 1 Shas'o and 1 Shas'el are not cheesy in 1500+, and 2 Shas'O are not called cheesy in 1750+.

Stealths: 6 up to 1000, 8 1001-1250, 10 1251-1500, 12 1501-1750.

Fire Warriors: It is cheesy to not have at least 12 unmounted/8 mounted fire warriors for every 500pts. It is not cheesy to stick them in transports. It is cheesy to take minimum sized fire warrior squads in transports.

Kroot: Never cheesy.

Pathfinders: Never cheesy.

Kroot Hounds: Never cheesy.

Broadsides: 2 up to 750, 4 in 751-1250, 6 1251-1750.

Hammerheads: 1 in 501-1000, 2 in 1001-1500, 3 should be fine in 1501+, depending if it's combined with any other nasty combo's.

Krootox: Will automatically reduce the cheesiness of the list.

Cheesy combinations:
A Tau army can become cheesy by taking what people perceive as too many skimmers, or too many suits that run away from combat or hide from shooting.

Many players will think Tau becomes too cheesy once you start sticking all of your fire warriors inside devilfish. This is absurd.

It is also impossible to say "it is cheesy if you have more than x amount of tanks every y pts". An army based on mounted fire warriors and pathfinders, without any suits, will not be cheesy, and can reach 7-8 skimmers in 1500pts.

Similarly, more than the recommended amount suggested previously may not be considered cheesy if other combinations have not been taken as well. A 1500pt army with 18 stealths will not be considered cheesy if it had no skimmers as well.

3 Hammerheads will nearly always be cheesy in 1500pts. At about 1750-1850pts, 3 hammerheads become cheesy if combined with an army otherwise based on devilfish and crisis/stealth suits, if all the units are optimised (no drones or markerlights).

So, the limits given are just good guidelines, nothing specific. It will no doubt help give a guideline to those that face the composition weighted nature of the WH40k game in Australia and somewhat less in the USA.

If you believe I have called your army cheesy undeservedly, you may misunderstand the point. Your army may do very well, is optimised, and competitive, or not. I am not listing what is good or bad. I am listing what is perceived as cheesy in your opponents mind.
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Old 16 Nov 2005, 16:32   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tau and Cheese

Hm... intresting. I think any army with Krootox is automatically the best compositioned army, utterly sacrificing playability for the idea of armoring Kroot.

So any non-FK suits don't count?

Intrestingly, breaking any of these laws gives you an unbalanced, and ineffective army.
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Old 16 Nov 2005, 18:07   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tau and Cheese

i play by the mantra of usefulness. hence, you will always see 3 hammerheads in my lists, from 1000pts up.

cheesy? look at it this way. 3 vehicles. and they cost 500pts. doesnt leave room for much else other than a shas'el and 2 devilfish squads.
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Old 16 Nov 2005, 18:42   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tau and Cheese

It's almost as cheesy to take 3 hh's in 1000 points as it is to take 3 wraithlords. It is difficult/nearly impossible for your opponent to killl them all, hence it is often callled cheesy. (regardless of what else you take)

It may not be what you consider your army, but as Olainari said, it's what others will probably view your army as being.
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Old 16 Nov 2005, 18:56   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tau and Cheese

Oh, there is plenty of cheese abound in warhammer, but you have to look at within context of the army. Tau really cannot be "cheesed" out, and i don't care what anyone will try to tell me. You can make the army much stronger than a normal army, but to say a perfectly composed Tau army is in the top tier of armies is absurd. The list just cannot be broken.

3 Hammerheads isn't really a big deal. Tau cannot buy extra armor. Any glance or penetrating hit does bad stuff to skimmers with no armor.

Other than that, I deny any claims you make towards army composition. 9 Broadside suits in any point value - in one force organization chart is a HORRIBLE idea, and they will pay dearly for having so many points tied up in so few, immobile shots.

Stealth suits, likewise, need to have ordnance dropped on them. You have a 1/3 chance to knock out a chunk. Stealth suits are great, but buying 18 restricts your crisis suits, which you probably need for missile pods.

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Old 16 Nov 2005, 19:12   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tau and Cheese

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khaldun
It's almost as cheesy to take 3 hh's in 1000 points as it is to take 3 wraithlords.* It is difficult/nearly impossible for your opponent to killl them all, hence it is often callled cheesy.
The problem is not the 3 Hammerheads or the 3 Wraithlords, it's playing games that are far too small.* 40K is designed to be played between 1500-2000 points.* Players who insist on playing smaller points values then that should create extra restrictions to encourage game balance, like a limit on heavy support choices, for example.* Players who play undersized games but create no extra restrictions do so at their own peril and have only themselves to blame.
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Old 16 Nov 2005, 21:25   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tau and Cheese

Good Post. Thought dotn think its cheesy to take crisis suits. First of all there way to expencive it you have like 9 in a 1000points game that like 1/2 your army and then guess where all there lazcannon shots will be going for instent kills. I think its not cheesy to take as many stealth as you want because 1kill = 30 points were as for firewarrior 1 kill =10 points 2shots vs no shots. I mean they are clocked but they are close to the front lines.
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Old 16 Nov 2005, 22:09   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tau and Cheese

why should you think that any army design is cheesy? if its something that works and you enjoy playing a particular army then i say play it even if someone thinks its cheesy.
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Old 16 Nov 2005, 22:16   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tau and Cheese

Cheesy is something unfair to a normal, balanced list or disagrees with the fluff. 500 points is something sent to investigate an abandoned mine or wierd looking tree. Are they really going to send two Hammer heads?
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Old 16 Nov 2005, 22:21   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tau and Cheese

Quote:
Originally Posted by MechTau
Cheesy is something unfair to a normal, balanced list or disagrees with the fluff. 500 points is something sent to investigate an abandoned mine or wierd looking tree. Are they really going to send two Hammer heads?
That's ridiculous. Cheesy is something that is pushing the army balance of the list, not something that beats a "balanced" list that adheres to invisible limitations put into place by the creator.

Please define a balanced list. I would love to hear your perception of it.
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