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ANyone else getting anti-tank agro?
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Old 28 Oct 2005, 08:21   #1 (permalink)
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Default ANyone else getting anti-tank agro?

I field a rather tank heavy Mech tau army... normally 2 ions, 1 railhead and 3 devilfish (2 with FW 1 with PF). The rest are stealths and HQ suits. sometimes a couple tetras. usually around 1500pts.

Now with all this 12+ armour flying about Ive started to notice a lot of opponent frustration and upset. Their shots almost always glance, and dont often make any damage. Compound this with my recent discovery of the joys of tankshock!

Now i realize this game is supposed to be both fun and something everyone would enjoy winning at one stage or another... but this agro V the Fish/heads is making me wonder if we arent simply powergaming in a new guise?

What I mean is... when i go against an army loaded to the teeth with heavys or all fast attack assualt i get the exact same sort of agro in my guts at the powergaming cheesiness... I have always been proud to field non powergaming armies and play fair and fight hard.

Has anyone else started noticing the 'i just dont have enough tankbusting weapons to take you down' comments?
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Old 28 Oct 2005, 08:57   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: ANyone else getting anti-tank agro?

Has anyone else started noticing the 'i just dont have enough tankbusting weapons to take you down' comments?
No, I haven't, at least not in personal Although, I've seen threads on the net. Well, first things first. We can field like, 6 skimmers, in 1.5k. A lot? Yes. Powergaming? No. Why? They are not that important, by themselves they won't do that much (well, maybe the hammerheads of course, but they're only 3). Would you want to kill a Rhino? It's basically just a transport with a small gun, the devilfish ain't that much more.

They don't pack enough anti-tank? Is that because they loaded up on plasma and powerswords, in order to kill marines? In that case, they've gotta change, not us. Because we're not powergameer'ish, at least not compared to everything else about. Gimme a break, 60 assault marines ain't cheesy? 12 Starcannons in 1.5k? Now we're talking. Or what about necrons? glancing our skimmers with every friggin weapon they've got? you know, a decent sized immortal squad should, by itself, manage 2 or maybe 3 glancing hits.

I think the guys you've played are simply packing too few anti-tank weapons, and that's not our fault, by any means. It's the only way to play Tau competitive, to bring a fully mech-force, as has been proved a number of times before. I know, 6 skimmers are a pain, but it's not that impossible to deal with. It's generally the h.heads that do the damage. Did your opponents ever try deepstriking behind you?

I think the game is fun as it is. The Tau are meant to be able to resist some beating. as it says (can't remember where) 'Looking for an army that can pack quite a punch whilst absorbing the enemy firepower?' Tau is your army. Please don't tell me this is refering to a static army with firewarriors falling by their score to heavy bolters etc.

No, my friend, I do not agree that we powergame by loading up on skimmers and battlesuits. I'd rather say that it's your opponents that are not experienced enough to deal with it, and that's not your fault. You are not supposed to handicap yourself simply because he can't figure out how to beat you.

You're simply the better player

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Old 28 Oct 2005, 11:01   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: ANyone else getting anti-tank agro?

No different from steel legion really other than our tanks are slightly tougher, but there's are vastly better armed (closer to proper light tanks than just APCs - though with the new codex ours sneak up with the addition of the SMS for 7S5 shots over 3 S6 and 3 S5 - they have better AP I suppose though).

On the otherhand I find Steel legion to be a pain to fight against though, its hard to get enough AT to take them on and their Russes. Its not impossible but its likely at least as hard to them to fight me, but then we're used to playing mechanised forces against each other
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Old 28 Oct 2005, 11:47   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: ANyone else getting anti-tank agro?

the comment that we can take to much armour is a comment that can be directed to most mechanised forces, by definition.

that said, it is easy to take out, or neutralise to some effective degree if you come with a well planned and decently all rounded force.
Drop pod veteran squads with 3 meltas and a plasma pistol have caused havok to my army, more than once! As have chimera mounted stormtroopers with 2 meltas.....

Its just a case that our mechanised stuff is pretty reliable and quite sturdy.* Would you rather your opponents be the type of people who deal with it, and take on your list with a bit of thought and strategy, or else whine about cheese and demand a special rule nearly that their army wins on a 2+ regardless, and that no other army bar theirs should have good or excellent units?

And i field a virtually mechanised force myself. 3 hammerheads, 2 devilfish, a shas'el suit and kroot in 1000pts.
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Old 28 Oct 2005, 12:01   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: ANyone else getting anti-tank agro?

I totally agree with all previous comments. Mech forces right now, however, are passe. Drop pod forces are, as deadnight says, the true worry. Armor cannot react before being melted by a tac squad jumping out of a pod at 10" and zapping 2 plasma shots and a melta into your tank. So they are glancing. 3 glancing changes give about a 1/3 chance of immobilized (die next turn) or destroyed.

The way I will be running IG, my next force, will be drop troops and armor combo just so I can compete with all the pod droppers in my area.

I know what you mean about Tau looking scary to others, but as was said they need to adapt. You are playing the force as designed, not powergaming.

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Old 28 Oct 2005, 12:17   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: ANyone else getting anti-tank agro?

I'd say it's the same reaction you'd get for brining an armored company...only mech-tau doesn't have the AC drawbacks (lack of troops). *I completely disagree that mech-tau is
the only way to play Tau competitive, to bring a fully mech-force, as has been proved a number of times before.
That's just a dumb thing to say. I took my Dark Angels to GT Atlanta a while back, and guess who won? A hybrid Tau army. *5 skimmers. *3 'heads and 2 fish...in 1850 points. *

And I win more than I lose at 1500 with:

2 railheads

36 firewarriors (12 mounted)

8 pathfinders

6 stealths

3 helios

1 ethereal

1 fireknife (Shas'O)

Since the pathfinders rarely use their transport, that's 33 static models and 14 mobile ones (not counting the FW in one of the fish, 26 mobile if you count them).
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Old 28 Oct 2005, 12:47   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: ANyone else getting anti-tank agro?

My list is going mechanized, I cant yet field that many tanks but Im getting there. I dont get any complaints from my opponents as all of them save the grey knights can throw out a rediculous amount of anti armor. Lacannons, lots of lascannons, rockets, lots of rockets. Hunter killer missils, krak grenades, las, melta, etc. Lots and lots and lots of them. Diverse enough not to be power gaming but still.... there are a bloody lot of them.

So when my opponents entire armies worth of heavy weapons throw all their fire at one of my hammerheads only to stun it I just shrug, waggle my finger and proceed to shoot them.

Using a mechanized army is not power gaming, but it is an exelent way of countering power gamers. Sure he may have a full dozen lascannons in his army, that doesnt matter if all of them fire on a single one of my tanks and simply shake it, or stun it. Even if I lose a gun I still have either 2 bursts or an SMS. If the devilfish, well it was only 100 points and its served its purpose, time to charge. I have not yet tried to tank shock my enemies much but Ive seen a single hell hound run half the infantry in a guard army off the board and Im wondering if a devilfish cant do the same.

What it basicly comes down to is that opponents are used to standing around trading fire with their tanks. Tau tanks dont do that. Ive seen players try to use Hammerheads like a leman russ, it just doesnt work. Our tanks are tough, fast and have exelent upgrades and weapons. On the other hand they are the only real mobile heavies we have. Opponents complain about how hard it is to take out our armor, alternatively we could complain about a Space Marine player with 3 10 man tac squads parked in his deployment zone with as many lascannons as he can find, or meltas in infantry squads, power weapons and psykers. We have just as many things to complain about as any other army does about us.

I dont see any real complaints but thats just because the looks of surprise are enough. The Tau players at my hobby shop previously were, in all truth, really pretty bad. I arrive and my army is shifting about, cutting down one or two units at a time. Doing the unexpected, rushing forward only to pull back. Suddenly they see that the Tau are not weak but can and do masacre their forces. They grind their teeth hunting down ellusive crisis suits only to be ripped apart by submunitions and pulse fire. They spend all their heavy weapons and tank rounds on my speeding Hammerheads only to have my Shas'O walk up behind their armor and blow it to bits. Their frustration is not towards any unit in particular, but to the army as a whole. The idea of Tau kicking them in the pants seems rather new to some of them and their reactions are in short, really funny. My tanks are a pain for them but are not really their biggest headache. Anyone who glances at the kill record of my commander, or the crazy assaults of my mobile FW squad can see that. My hammerheads do damage and usually make up their points, the devilfish is infinetly usefull, but its the fire they draw that helps the most. While their rocking around under the weight of an entire armies worth of fire the rest of my army is systematcally tearing my opponents apart.

Tanks are not the main problem for the enemy and are not cheesy or power gaming. If anything its what they disgorge and what they cover with distraction that is the real problem for any enemy.

But in any case I just think the Tau tanks rock and they are simply jelous. Wondering why on earth their precious space marines dont have such powerfull skimmers.

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Old 28 Oct 2005, 13:50   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: ANyone else getting anti-tank agro?

I'd say it's the same reaction you'd get for brining an armored company...only mech-tau doesn't have the AC drawbacks (lack of troops). I completely disagree that mech-tau is
the only way to play Tau competitive, to bring a fully mech-force, as has been proved a number of times before.

That's just a dumb thing to say. I took my Dark Angels to GT Atlanta a while back, and guess who won? A hybrid Tau army. 5 skimmers. 3 'heads and 2 fish...in 1850 points.
well, what you're saying could simply be the exception that confirms the rule Okay, don't take that comment very seriously if you disagree, but my point stands. A lot of us agree, else it wouldn't be a MTT site. And, of course, a few static elements aren't necessarily always bad.

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Old 28 Oct 2005, 14:00   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: ANyone else getting anti-tank agro?

When I first started playing in Germany, I was routinely massacaring my opponents, for the same reason you mentioned....they weren't bringing enough AT. *There were a lot of non-marine players, so the few marine brought lots of heavy bolters and such, while the non-marines brought things like dark reapers, banshees, lots of sluggas and nobs with power claws....

In short, the local gaming environment had evolved to a point where it was very different from the game as a whole.

In this situation, I came in with my 3 hammerheads, and they couldn't touch me. *After a couple months, I start to see more and more lascannons and bright lances start coming out, and people start considering AT. *Heck, some people try to join the bandwagon, and by transports of their own.....eldar skimmers, landraiders, etc. *Just when it looks like I'll have to start playing more with skill and less with "your list just isn't built right to contest me", it was time for me to go back to the states.

So, in the end, I'd say not to worry....I've seen plenty of marine (and other) lists posted around that would through Tau into fits. *Just gotta wait until your local club evolves to that point. *It's all part of the game. *You should never feel that you should handicap or "dumb-down" your list...a good opponent should look at it as a challenge to beat your list, and will tinker incessantly with his own list until he does.

At least, that's what I'd do.
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Old 28 Oct 2005, 14:09   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: ANyone else getting anti-tank agro?

As an opponent to someone who plays a fully mechanized list, I find it frustrating. Not because it is hard to win, but because the games are boring and don't include all aspects of the game.

Meaning, if I am playing my regular opponent, I know that:
1) there will be no assault phases, period. Any points I spend on assault troops are wasted. (and I play orks)
2) any weapon upgrade that cannot pop a tank is worthless to take. My sisters are suposed to have a holy trinity, bolter, flamer, meltagun. Mine tend towards bolter, meltagun, because flamers are completely useless against my most regular opponent.
3) my opponent will pay 200 odd points for 12 firewarriors in a devilfish who will never, ever get out of their ship unless it is downed.

It's one strategy. So far, it has not proved horribly effective for my opponent. The idea of spending 120 points (three times over) just to hide in a mediocre transport seems like wasting a lot of points to me. But, it's not fun to play against. It skews the game too far in one direction. I understand Tau player's reluctance to get into assault, but creating a situation where any sort of points put into anti-infantry stuff (be it assault, or just anti-infantry weaponry) are wasted is not a lot of fun, especially for armies where anti-vehicle stuff is not the most common, or doesn't have a lot of range (see the comment about sisters & meltaguns)
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