Tau Empire Codex 2013 | Army Builder Program
Dark Angels Codex 2013
Chaos Daemons Codex 2013
Chaos Space Marines Codex 2012

Warhammer 40k Forum Tau Online

 

Warhammer 40K Forum

Batrep; Tyranids vs Tau. No railheads?
Closed Thread
Old 09 Oct 2005, 05:30   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: California
Posts: 1,840
Send a message via MSN to Khaldun
Default Batrep; Tyranids vs Tau. No railheads?

Alright, as a part of the continuing Railheads thread, I had a battle this weekend against the tyranids, using my 1500 list with no railheads. Firstly, the armies;

Tau; total 1501
2 Shas'el fireknife
3 crisis plasma burst
monat twin fusion shield
monat flamer fusion
2 squads of 12 fw's + shas'ui
devilfish with decoy
2 squads of 20 kroot
broadside with multi
2 ionheads with burst, multi, target, decoy

Tyranids; total 1502
1 tyrant with wings, toxin, enhanced bs, 2 TL devourer
9 stealers, ext carapace
9 stealers, ext carapace
16 hormagaunts
16 hormagaunts
24 gaunts with spinefists
3 zoanthropes w/syanapse; 2 with catalyst, 1 with warp blast
2 carnifex with bs 3, ext carapce, extra wound, venom cannon, barbed strangler

I faced off against "mike"; known for creating evil armies and using them well too. He's about as good as I am, but usually pulls some very sneaky tricks with his lists.

Pre game thoughts by mike;
It's my first battle in about a month, so I'm a little rusty. I expect the hormagaunts to get a second turn charge, preventing my opponent from shooting. The genestealers are going to be the second wave, and they should be able to crush anything in Brandon's army. The Tyrant will hopefully kill any pathfinders, and the carnifexes are there to kill the tanks. The zoanthropes provide my gaunts a synapse web, so that's about it.

My pre game thoughts;
I haven't played mike in a while; going into this I've got an army that has some good numbers, especially from the 40 kroot, so I'm not terribly afraid of the little things in close combat unless there's 100 of them or they're deadly. If the warriors/monstrous creatures get in combat, however, they're gonna stomp those poor kroot flat! The plan; kill the synapse/any shooty stuff early, throw the 40 kroot into the little things, and keep the crisis suits away from the winged hive tyrant that mike always seems to bring! (much to my chagrin, he did bring a winged tyrant) The ionheads should kill anything they're effective against, or distract a portion of the tyranid swarm away so he doesn't hit me all at once.

Deployment; I choose the table side without the buildings; I assume that if I wanted the advantage of buildings, then the game wouldn't be fair, so I take the forested side instead.

I put my ionhead on a flank; I hope that this vehicle will be able to distract the forces on that flank long enough for me to deal with the other side.

(I made some neat diagrams of the board for each turn using word, but the site doesn't like .doc files. if anyone knows how I can get the diagrams here, that'd be great. In the meantime, I can PM them to you if you ask.)

TURN ONE: the tyranids get first turn, and advance everywhere, as expected. One carnifex climbs a level 3 ridge. It can thus see the level three tank behind the level three trees. It promptly blows off the main gun, and kills 2 kroot in woods with the barbed strangler. The other fex shakes the devilfish.

Then I strike back. I choose to target the carnifex on my left, not being drawn away by the ionheads, (because the one lost it's gun, it heads off to the right instead of left, to help draw away more nids) before the winged tyrant because it's more expensive and dangerous. It takes three wounds, and has 2 left. My devilfish rushes forward to "herd" the smaller organisms towards the fw's in cover. My kroot should be able to counter charge and finish them off while the fw's delay them. Everything opens fire, and some of the smaller things go down.

TURN TWO; the tyranids get really really close to my fw's. The devilfish is destroyed by the carnifex twice over. The drones pop off, and go down under practically the entire tyranid army in assault. The gaunts fail their charge into the fw's in cover because they don't run far enough. The "machine gun tyrant" rolls 12 shots at bs 4, re-rolling misses and failed wounds. It kills six fw's.

The tau prompty throw everything into the tyranids, due to some unlucky plasma rolls, the kroot have to rapid fire the fex to death, and succeed. The damaged ionhead and undamaged ionhead both run to block the progress of the tyranids not near my army, while blowing up some gaunts in the process. (those burst cannons really do a number on gaunts) The genestealers that decided to hide the cover of the devilfish are reduced to one model, and the hormagaunts are rapid fired by the fw's.

TURN THREE; The tyranids move forward and unleash a very nasty volley before charging in. The remaining carnifex barely sees one of the kroot in the woods, and because they're clumped kills 10. I rolled terribly for their saves... One of the commanders, all of the fw's, and the squad of crisis are assaulted. The fw's are wiped out completely in one turn, and the tyrant kills a crisis and a half, with the help of the spingants. The kroot pass ld tests.

One of the crisis, the one with a flamer, deepstrikes in.. FINALLY. It is set up perfectly to roast most all of the stealers... until it scatters 9". I'm thankful it just didn't go off the table. The ionheads ditch the tyranids who have been effectively removed from most of the battle, and attack the stealers. None remain. The broadside shoots the lone stealer in cover and finishes it off. The commander is swarmed by a ridiculously lucky squad of hormagaunts, and shredded. The guants prompty attack the new arrival and kill his drones. The kroot assault the spinegants/hive tyrant to protect the shas'el. They kill all of the spinegants, but cannot prevent the tyrant from squashing the 2 remaining suits.

TURN FOUR; The tyrant squashes a few kroot and sends half running. The broadside get's attacked by a zoanthrope... and the lamest combat in history begins. (2+ save vs 2+ save, with 1 or 2 attacks each) The carnifex and a zoanthrope with warp blast do nothing to the ionheads. The last of the hormagaunts who were drawn away advance partway into the woods.

The ionheads retaliate against the hormagaunts and wipe them out. The tyrant scatters the kroot, and moves a little towards the escaping shas'el, who hides behind a rock formation in the lower left, hoping to free the monat next turn. The twin fusion monat scatters and then proceeds to hit a zoanthrope and wound it. 6+ invulnerable later, and nothing happens. Drat him.

Turn 5; The tyrant flys over right next to the broadside combat in the rocks, and wounds the commander 12 full times before he collapses under a mass of brain worms. The tyrant then proceeds to munch on the hapless broadside, and the hormagaunts finish off the monat. The monat with a shield gets hit by warp blast from behind... and melts.

The ionheads attack the now isolated tyrant, and find it's armor doesn't repel their shots! They wound it once with the remaining ion cannon, and wipe the last hormagaunt from the table.

Turn 6; The tyranids blow every last gun off the damaged ionhead, and stun it.

The ionhead needs to hit and wound the tyrant 3 times to kill the tyrant and draw the game; it only does 2. The game ends with the tyranids having 3 zoanthropes, a carnifex, and the tyrant with 1 wound remaining. The tau have a severly damaged ionhead and an untouched one. A minor victory to the Tyranids! (433.5 VPs remaining for tyranids, 225 for tau)

Post game thoughts;
Mike; Well, about the only thing that went according to plan was the zoanthropes providing synapse. The genestealers drew a lot of fire, and I was lucky that Brandon never shot the ion cannons at my tyrant. The venom cannons weren't as effective as I would have hoped after the first turn. The genestealers were great in combat, but not tough enough to survive all of the tau shooting. The hormagaunts weren't very effective. One squad went the wrong way, and the other failed to charge six inches to get to the fire warriors. My tyrant was able to kill enough crisis suits to give me a win though.

Me; Drat that lvl 3 terrain! I had the battle so well planned... and that fex has to blow my gun off when it shouldn't have. Well, it should have, it could see me. In the future climbing lvl 3 terrain in one turn is kind-of strange, will have to fix that. He blew off my ioncannon, which would have targeted the tyrant first thing. My other ionhead was on the other side of the table, and couldn't. That thing saved the day for mike; without it, my suits would have made it and probably would have taken the last fex down too. All because my ionhead lost it's gun... Anyway, I've learned that the deepstriking monat doesn't work. You can't bring that many of them, and who knows when they'll appear. The broadside did really well; it caused a wound for 3 turns, every turn, before a zoanthrope caught it. Next time, I'll drop the monats for another broadside or two. A hard fought, if chancy, victory for the tyranids then.

MVP; "machine gun tyrant"
bullet magnet; the ionhead with no weapons.
The lessons;
This is connected with the "Railheads; why you shouldn't use them" topic. I argued that there are better alternatives to the railhead, and I think I've stumbled upon one that works; the ionheads and broadsides tactic. Broadsides take down those monstrous creatures and heavy vehicles really fast. I would have been nice to have more of them. Crisis barely hurt big nasties compared to broadsides, because their plasma is str 6.

The cheapness of the ionheads frees up more points for the broadsides and other things; using them to draw off a portion of mike's army worked really well, and I wasn't too worried if he killed one.

I liked how my army performed better than it did with railheads, and with a few tweaks I believe I might have something really good here. While my army wasn't ultra effective against tyranids, it's pretty good against nearly anyone. I feel that if I make my list balanced enough, I'll be able to win against any army.

Comments? Suggestions are welcome, as is constructive criticism.
__________________
War is cruelty. There is no use trying to reform it; the crueler it is, the sooner it will be over. - General William Sherman
Khaldun is offline  
Old 09 Oct 2005, 06:02   #2 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Retired back into the depths of the Internets.
Posts: 6,440
Send a message via MSN to mace
Default Re: Batrep; Tyranids vs Tau. No railheads?

Very unlucky with the Carnifex vs ionhead :\

Good to see that the Ionheads worked, though I was surprised there were no stealth in there.

Nice batrep overall, interesting read :P
__________________
mace is offline  
Old 09 Oct 2005, 06:42   #3 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Anchorage AK
Posts: 361
Send a message via MSN to wind777
Default Re: Batrep; Tyranids vs Tau. No railheads?

Think thats unlucky... Out of like 10 games i have taken my HH with Rail, in 6 games it got its gun taken off or got blown up 2 times no gun 4 times no ship. Dont ever Deep strike Crisis. Bring some Stealth units. Get more firewarriors and broadsides.

1-Shas'o 127 (PG,FB,MP,HWMT)

36-Firewarriors 360
3 TeamLeaders 30
3 Marker Lights 30
3 HWTL 21
--------------------441
6 Stealth Teams 180
1 TeamLeader 10
1 MarkerLight 10
1 HWTL 7
----------------------207
2 Devil Fishs------160
3 Seekers on Each 60
Fleching 10
Pods 10
------------------------240
60kroot 420
1Broadside 70
----Total----------
1505

Plan of attack.
Taking out the Big things, you need to hit them with seeker missles and the broadsides. Get the kroots infront of your units and infeltrate your stealth so hopefully you can devert some units to them. The devil fish should be infront of your kroot so they cant be charged. Also so you can get the charge bonus. Basically just survive is what i say.


Stealth

DF DF
Kroot Kroot Kroot
Firewarriors Firewarriors FW
Shas'o Broadsides


wind777 is offline  
Old 09 Oct 2005, 07:05   #4 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 25
Send a message via MSN to bladeboy258
Default Re: Batrep; Tyranids vs Tau. No railheads?

I'd suggest taking a shield drone because they are worth taking with stealths against armies with good firepower and in CC they always die first (it's Tau custom that drones always go first).
__________________
bladeboy258 is offline  
Old 09 Oct 2005, 07:07   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,260
Default Re: Batrep; Tyranids vs Tau. No railheads?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeboy258
I'd suggest taking a shield drone because they are worth taking with stealths against armies with good firepower and in CC they always die first (it's Tau custom that drones always go first).
Well, a custom prior to 4th edition rules maybe ;D
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Edwin
Also note I have 6 lord level HQ's leading 10 scouts.
Join the arena, and succumb to the eternal lust!
http://forums.tauonline.org/index.php?topic=9054.0
ShadowDeth is offline  
Old 09 Oct 2005, 07:28   #6 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 6
Default Re: Batrep; Tyranids vs Tau. No railheads?

Great report! I think your are definately on to something with the Ionheads!



ollie


ps your avatar rocks...I live in SD where OBEY posters are everywhere.
olliekickflip is offline  
Old 09 Oct 2005, 14:39   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Home
Posts: 1,492
Default Re: Batrep; Tyranids vs Tau. No railheads?

Quote:
This is connected with the "Railheads; why you shouldn't use them" topic. I argued that there are better alternatives to the railhead, and I think I've stumbled upon one that works; the ionheads and broadsides tactic. Broadsides take down those monstrous creatures and heavy vehicles really fast. I would have been nice to have more of them. Crisis barely hurt big nasties compared to broadsides, because their plasma is str 6.

The cheapness of the ionheads frees up more points for the broadsides and other things; using them to draw off a portion of mike's army worked really well, and I wasn't too worried if he killed one.

I liked how my army performed better than it did with railheads, and with a few tweaks I believe I might have something really good here. While my army wasn't ultra effective against tyranids, it's pretty good against nearly anyone. I feel that if I make my list balanced enough, I'll be able to win against any army.
my bolding, not Khal's


I think the quote above might as well have been written before the battle, and you didn't stumble on a damned thing in this battle. You were arguing all those points before you even thought of fighting a battle, and you went into the battle seeking to justify a preconcieved notion, not in an objective search for some elusive truth. And you offer nothing to show that railheads would do worse. I'd be inclined to think they'd do better, being able to drop templates on the little tau, and not having the crappy strength of the ion cannon versus the monsters.

If you want to show that Ion cannons are the way to go, Tyranids are not the enemy to use as your evidence. Ionheads excell against medium toughness, high save models. Rails are better against monstrous creatures and hordes than ionheads, both of which tyranids typically field in great numbers.

Something that stands out to me is the poor showing of the lone broadside. 3 wounds? For the entire game? Perhaps if you fielded more of them...but where would the points come from?

I would have expected more than one broadside in a battle designed to prove that they are better than railheads, and I would have expected a power-armored foe in a battle designed to showcase the utility of ionheads. A bit disappointing, really.

I'd suggest a new test, where you field at least 2 broadsides, and play against someone with 3+ saves. And where the conclusions drawn are actually supported by the batrep....and don't comment on "alternative weapons schemes" that didn't take part in the battle. You can't exactly use a batrep for a battle that included no stealth suits to say that kroot did better than stealth suits would have :. At best, you could hypothesize that if you had deployed them in the same place with the same mission, statistically they would probably have done X, where the kroot did Y, which is higher/lower than their expected performance, blah blah blah. Best not to mention units that didn't take part.
__________________
Due to an error in translation, the isolated colony of T'ves'kal'dai mistakenly worshiped the greater goose for seven generations. Reeducation efforts continue.

Quote:
"Cheese for the cheese god! More wins for Pwn!"
march10k is offline  
Old 09 Oct 2005, 17:38   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sandy Eggo
Posts: 1,954
Default Re: Batrep; Tyranids vs Tau. No railheads?

OUCH! harsh reply, above!


but regarding the .doc situation: erm, whats a .doc?? if its a format generated by a program, see if you can convert it to .bmp, .jpg(preferred), or .html.

.bmp's can be converted to .jpg through windows paint, and will drop the pic file size from 600k to 8k. files these small can be stockpiled in a free server space photo album (like www.photobucket.com), and posted in msg, like so:



this is a windows paint pic, converted and stored and presented just as described above... the wavy distorsions are an artifact of low-quality jpg's... since its an algorithm-thing... not an actual pic... but oh well! things are clear enough, eh??

hope that helps! private msg me if you want more details on how to do, if ya want!
__________________
Though I walk through the valley of the swarms of the clueless, I shall fear no idiocy, for the M-STAR flagged them 12 seconds ago, and the JDAMS are already freefalling.
Calaban is offline  
Old 10 Oct 2005, 01:02   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: California
Posts: 1,840
Send a message via MSN to Khaldun
Default Re: Batrep; Tyranids vs Tau. No railheads?

Quote:
Originally Posted by march10k

If you want to show that Ion cannons are the way to go, Tyranids are not the enemy to use as your evidence.* Ionheads excel against medium toughness, high save models.* Rails are better against monstrous creatures and hordes than ionheads, both of which tyranids typically field in great numbers.*
Well, people already know that ionheads excel against marines. However, someone suggested that I try against tyranids because the ionheads would be more of a challenge. What I'm going for is not an army that will beat X, Y, and Z all the time but won't be very good against A or B. I'm trying to create an army that will do reasonably well against all of them. I knew the railhead could do a number on hormagaunts if he bunched them, and especially the 20 point genestealers. (I didn't know mike would bring them) However, the railhead is either an awesome choice or a bad choice, it is usually not an OK choice. If I want to make the best general list, the railhead probably isn't the way to go. Ionheads can almost always find something to do, and they're cheaper.

The "poor showing" of the lone broadside actually wasn't that bad. I reiterate; the plasma shots from my crisis only wounded half the time they hit. The broadside wounded every time it hit, and it was twin linked. Because I placed it right in front of one of his carnifexes, amongst most of my army, he couldn't dodge it and still shoot me. Frankly, I wish I had taken more... and I know where to get the points. The lone monats didn't cut it, so they're being replaced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by march10k

I'd suggest a new test, where you field at least 2 broadsides, and play against someone with 3+ saves.* And where the conclusions drawn are actually supported by the batrep....and don't comment on "alternative weapons schemes" that didn't take part in the battle.* You can't exactly use a batrep for a battle that included no stealth suits to say that kroot did better than stealth suits would have* :.* At best, you could hypothesize that if you had deployed them in the same place with the same mission, statistically they would probably have done X, where the kroot did Y, which is higher/lower than their expected performance, blah blah blah.* Best not to mention units that didn't take part.
This is a good suggestion, and I will take it to heart. I won't speak of units that don't participate in the future. I'll switch the list up a little more too; how about this?

Shas'el plasma burst
2 squads of 12 fw's + shas'ui
1 devilfish with decoy
3 crisis with twin plasma; 1 shield, 1 flamer, 1 target
2 ionheads with burst, decoy, multi, target
3 broadsides; 2 target, 1 multi
20 kroot, 6 hounds
6 stealth
For 1500 points.

Powergamer test score; 2. Excellent gamer.

This "all comers" army should be able to deal with most all opponents pretty well, and almost no-one extremely well, and certainly no-one badly. 3 broadsides might be overkill, but 2 isn't good. lose one broadside, take an AOYO test every turn.

Is this list not generalist enough? How would the railhead make this list better? Killing infantry is taken care of, methinks; the 24 fw's, secondary tank weapons, 20+ kroot and 6 stealth should be up to it, and broadsides are half the cost of the railhead per shot, and hit more.

Finally; .doc files are word docs. You know, like the ones you write to make an essay. Word has a feature that lets you draw things very much like the diagram you mentioned, calaban. Don't really think you CAN convert word docs to .jpg or .html
__________________
War is cruelty. There is no use trying to reform it; the crueler it is, the sooner it will be over. - General William Sherman
Khaldun is offline  
Old 10 Oct 2005, 01:33   #10 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 339
Default Re: Batrep; Tyranids vs Tau. No railheads?

Actually, I'm the one that said you should try your list against the tyranid player, because I knew the ionheads would be at a disadvantage compared to the railhead...I just wanted to see if it was such a disadvantage that it would cripple the list or not.

Actually, I was rather surprised at their performance....seemed fairly good to me. Based on the units involved and such, I wonder how much more effective the railheads would have been? It didn't look like they'd have made that much of a difference, and the game was certainly close enough that it was winnable.

I don't think it vindicated your premise, but I don't thing your list was beaten to the point where it shouldn't be considered anymore.

I also don't think there's a problem speculating on what would/wouldn't have helped during the game. Heck, that's what any discussion about army lists and tactics boils down to: wargaming in your mind what units would work and which wouldn't. I just finished a battle report today, and there were a few units that didn't really pull their weight, and I muse a bit on what should change, and how those changes would have helped. Seems to make sense to me.
foxxpetronivs is offline  
Closed Thread

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
[BatRep] Tyranids vs Orks Akaiyou Battle Reports 14 23 Oct 2008 18:06
[BatRep] Tyranids vs Orks Akaiyou Battle Reports 20 17 Oct 2008 19:42
[BatRep] Tau vs tyranids, demons, and tyranids knightperson Tau 3 29 Apr 2008 06:22
[BatRep]: Tau vs Tyranids Krimxon Tau 31 06 Jun 2006 01:54
[batrep] Tau vs. Tyranids. Yoriaki Tau 6 26 Feb 2006 03:00