[Calaban]

first, some quotes:

codex, pg 19

Any unit suffering at least one wound from Pulse Carbine fire must test for pinning

4th Rulebook, Pg32

when the firing of a single enemy unit inflicts casualties with pinning weapons, the target unit must take a.... ......A unit may be called upon to make multiple pinning tests in a single turn.

now, these are the rules. soak them up, then answer this:
before the 4th clarification, were pinning tests triggered by successfull wounds only (meaning roll to wound was successfull, before armor saves)?? this is a moot point, just curious

and this:
if a Firewarrior squad with 6 Carbines shoots, and 2 of those Carbines actually kills something... is it 1 pinning test, or 2??



if the last question is 2, well, then! im going max Carbines in squads, and investing in Drone Squads! (because even Ld10 will whiff a roll if rerolled 6-7 times... and will again next turn... and the next...)

[Vash113]

"inflicts casualties with pinning weapons, the target unit must take a"

Notice the plural on the word casualty and the single a. More than one wound is still just one pinning test when fired by one squad. If say 2 firewarrior units and 2 gundrone squads inflict even 1 cassualty each then your opponent will be rolling 4 pinning tests. So as long as you can hit with multiple squads the pinning tests must continue.

[Elessar]

i used to think like that, dont waste ur time, use the beautiful 30" range of your pulse rifles. if u want u can mount up a squad with loads of em in a devil speed ahead, pin people down and then move back out, sort of like speed bumps. but to be honest id just stick to the good old method of not leaving anything alive to take a pinning test.p.s. do the rules say that half the FW in a squad can have carbines or does it say 6.

[Vash113]

It says up to half rounded down. That means never more than 6. If you have 12 warriors you can take 6, if you have 7 firewarriors you can take 3, etc.

[Calaban]

Originally Posted by Elessar

dont waste ur time, use the beautiful 30" range of your pulse rifles.

im trying to smash my skull through paradigms... call it a hobby... the above quote is a paradigm. one that everyone seems to follow blindly.. but why?

its not a beautifull gun.... why? because if you want to say move to some cover, or take a loot token, or move around an obstruction to get a full squads firepower on something, that 'beautifull' guns range drops to 12"!!! if your doing the above things, and are still withing this range, then youre in serious trouble, because thats the last time they get to USE that gun

another problem with 30" range is that tables are 48" across, usually with 12" deployment zones... this leaves units 24-35" away at game start..... if they get first move, theyll be 18-23" away... in most situations, right smack in Carbine range.. at the end of turn1... so WHY need 30"?? 30" range is not a bonus.. its a glitzy distraction to the fact that most enemies will be far FAR within that range, and it therefore means nothing. its just glitz! (tell me a time when the enemy stayed in a zone where the Rifles hit but their gun was out of range for more than the first turn... bet you cant think of a time... )

and to the "more Rapid Fire" argument: when has 12 Pulse Rifles at rapid fire range killed more than 4 Space Marines??? is that good enough to keep you out of assault?? nope. well, if its not a guaranteed wipe-out, why have as many as you can in the first place? Carbines give you a shot at STOPPING the assault for another turn.

FoF (CFS/Anklebiter maneuver) has a new facet in a max-Carbine squad as well, you can deploy beyond the 12" assault range and Carbine-fire at them!, if they wanna close to charge, Carbine again AND rapid fire Rifle them... doesnt that also sound better?

these are Paradigms that ive already pushed through, sorry to disrail my own thread, but this is the background to why i asked about the pinning facet in the first place...

[Vash113]

Actually it is a beutiful gun. I have almost NEVER seen an enemy deploy their troops at the farthest forward edge of their deployment zone, WHY? Because then they are in easy burst cannon range. Also marines have a leadership of 10 most times, carbines do almost nothing to these guys. I have succesfully pinned marines ONCE! And I field drones quite often and my main forward attack unit has 2 carbines in it. Carbines give you one shot where the rifle gives you extra range and 2 shots in close up. Also if you are 12 inches away that extra double shots can force your enemy to break, then they have to approach you again and ya know what? Rapid fire AGAIN! It is a beutiful gun and Im sory but the carbine is really rather useless. This is not just a paradigm but a fact. That 30 inch range also comes in handy when enemies try to flank you, sure the deployment zones may not be that far apart, but also when has an enemy ever deployed right infront of your warriors and when has there been no terrain for them to hide behind. The opponent will most likely approach you at an angle that is more than 30" away, it is here that you can really pile on the hurt for several turns before they can shoot back.

The pulse rifle is just a lot more powerful in 4th edition and the carbine is broken. Now that we get both shots on the move the pulse rifle is a much better assault or retreat weapon than the carbine. Sure a couple carbines can be a help sometimes but pilling the maximum into your squad will cut your firepower down by a third, halve it at full range and pinning will be nearly pointless. I would recomend you never take more than 3 carbines in a squad. Some are ok, too many is a total waste and criples your squad.

[SynapsyS]

I take 1/3 carbines in every squad, without fail (usually, this means 4). I just like the added flexibility it gives to the unit, and also, modelling wise, it looks really really cool to have mixed units.

I'm a hobbyist, but i still enjoy being able to relocate and deal out at least a couple of shots on the run.

[march10k]

Originally Posted by Calaban

another problem with 30" range is that tables are 48" across, usually with 12" deployment zones... this leaves units 24-35" away at game start..... if they get first move, theyll be 18-23" away... in most situations, right smack in Carbine range.. at the end of turn1... so WHY need 30"??

Okay, it takes a huge amount of wishful thinking to believe that 18-23" equates to "right smack in carbine range" in most situations. Just reread that statement 6 or 7 times. How in the hell does 18-23" equal less than 18" most of the time? ??? ??? ???

The fact is, a unit deployed exactly 24" away that moves a full 6" towards you can not be engaged by a weapon with 18" range, applying the logic of the same ruling that two units deployed exactly 24" apart cannot shoot at each other without moving the tiniest bit closer.

Here's why you want 30":

On a 48" board with a 12" deployment zone, if you deploy firewarriors across the front edge, and he deploys his troops at the back edge, your troops are less than 36" apart, by the width of one small round base. Therefore, if you advance 6" on turn 1, you are ~29" away from him. His rapid fire weapons can't reach you. On turn 2, you can shoot, but he can't. If he also advances, you still get to shoot him before he shoots you. That's the beauty of 30" range. Regardless of what he does, regardless of who gets first turn, you will always get the first shot off with rapid-fire weapons.

[Calaban]

Originally Posted by march10k

Okay, it takes a huge amount of wishful thinking to believe that 18-23" equates to "right smack in carbine range" in most situations.* Just reread that statement 6 or 7 times. How in the hell does 18-23" equal less than 18" most of the time? ??? ??? ???

The fact is, a unit deployed exactly 24" away that moves a full 6" towards you can not be engaged by a weapon with 18" range, applying the logic of the same ruling that two units deployed exactly 24" apart cannot shoot at each other without moving the tiniest bit closer.

simple. with Carbines, you have the option available to move AND shoot at max range. 18-23" means 'in Carbine range' because you can move and make it so. thinking completely static is limiting: assuming your guns range will drop to 12" if you budge it a millimeter is ignoring completely the assault1 characteristic of Carbines.

im leaning more and more towards Carbines simply for the "hey! i get to MOVE!" bonus. Pulse Rifles drop to effectively Pulse Pistols if you move. : well, sure everone elses rifles do the same thing... i just think you cant call the Rifle Beautifull... it makes you plant it, and leaves you no tactical options. and Firewarriors arent built to plant it and swap fire. they just arent up to it. so, then, the Pulse Rifles makes Firewarriors suicidal as well.... niiiice gun! :P

[Vash113]

What are you talking about? Pulse rifles dont limit flexibility. I move my static firebases into new positions or sweep them forward to deal out damage in rapid fire range. 12 inches on a 48 inch board is not that bad. When used in conjunction with other units Im not sending my troops to their suicidal death, they are merely finishing off the opponent and moving to a new spot. Halving your number of shots is suicidal. Also Firewarriors are perfectly capable to plant in a solid spot and exchange fire. In good 3+ cover they can last a good long time. Just because you cant find any tactics to use with pulse rifles doesnt mean they are tacticly inflexible.

Pulse rifles are much better on the move as they still get both their shots, where the carbine gets one at 18. That extra 6" range isnt a whole lot of help and that extra volume of fire really helps in downing the approaching unit. Use the carbine all you want, your removing fully half of your firepower for something that wont work most of the time and extra range that wont do much good. Ok you get to move and shoot at those guys 18-23" away with 6 shots, but what are you doing? Most likely moving out into the open, out of cover and your troops are now perfect cannon fodder for the first ordanance weapon that comes along. Not only that but those 6 shots arent going to really do anything. If you stayed put with your 30" range you will be able to hit with 12 shots. Then as the enemy gets closer your volume of fire doubles with the pulse rifle, so lets say the enemy starts out 24" away after moving a turn. You fire 12 shots, then they move another 6 up to 18, you fire 12 more shots, they move another 6 up to 12 and now you can rush forward or perhaps stay put and hit them with 24 shots, thats 48 pulse shots. Now lets say you have 6 carbines and you move forward to shoot, you get 6 shots at 18 inch range, then they move forward to 12, now you get 18 shots, they move forward to 6 and charge you. You only get 24 shots, thats half the volume of fire from the pulse rifles pluse you can still stay in cover with the rifle and will at least get to strike first.

Now say when the enemy moves up to 12 you move back 6 and fire, now only 6 more shots, sure you may be able to stay at 18" range but you are going to run out of board and if your opponent is space marines the pinning has a minoot chance of pinning them, nothing you can count on reliably. Also your opponent can rapid fire with his bolters every turn he rushes forward, eventually you will find yourself badly outgunned. Now this is also assuming you are not trying to retreat through cover and then there is every likelyhood that the enemy will catch you.

Moving and shooting is not that great, a Firewarrior unit is not an assault squad and doesnt need to be used as such. A static firebase or a mobile fire support unit is what they exel at. A few carbines can help a mobile squad as it lets you put them at the back and make sure the rifles are in rapid fire range but full 6 is a waste. I find even 4 to be pointless.

The carbine is the suicidal option if there is one. The pulse rifle is a nice gun, its a great gun. The carbine on the other hand is just partially usefull some of the time. Im not one for taking something that makes my tactics rely on something that is itself highly unreliable and fairly underpowered. If they make the carbine assault 2 I will love that. I like the carbines pinning every once in a while and I think it looks a lot better than the pulse rifle. But Im still not going to risk my entire unit on its use only to have that approaching marine squad pass its checks and smash into me anyway.

Now if you really want to use carbines the tactic I have found to work very well is to keep a drone squadron close by the on foot squad. A unit of 4 is enough though if its covering for 2 squads the 8 drones is better. This way you have the possibility of pinning and the drones can also rush forward and lock up the enemy to allow your squad to get away to a new vantage point, ready to open fire again, or to stay put and switch their fire to another unit while stealth suits or other units come to the drones aid. With I and twin linked the drones put the carbine to much, MUCH better use than the Firewarriors. Its an assault weapon, Firewarriors dont do assault very well. But drones on the other hand are quite capable of accomplishing the task.