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Burst-tide w/ Tankunter -vs- AV14 :: "Fight!"
Old 26 May 2015, 04:29   #11 (permalink)
Join Date: Apr 2010
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Just be careful, an unsupported heavy burst cannon really isn't a strong option against AV14. Using the railside as comparison isn't a great argument since it isn't intended for that job either. With the buff to the survivability of tanks through the vehicle destroyed chart, and the nerf of rail weapons in the Tau army, the best solution for high value vehicles is almost exclusively the fusion blaster. The tankhunter reroll will help a little with your bursttide but it will NEED to get support each turn if you want it to do anything.

Running the numbers...

Without support you're sitting at a base180 points:
Roll for nova charge with a 4/6 success rate (take 0.33 wounds a turn). This also means you will be stuck with just the regular 6 non-rending shots 1/3 of the time.
So the remaining 2/3 of the time the roll to hit on 12 shots gets you 6 hits, 6 misses, 2 of which hurt you 1/6 of the time (take another 0.33 wounds per turn 2/3 of the time... or 0.22 per turn on average)
Roll to glance on AV14 you first need 6s, rerollable. This gets you 1.17 2/3 of the time (0.78 average damage per turn).
You then need an additional 2 or 3 to deal any damage, which gets you to 0.78 vehicle damage 2/3 of the time (0.52 average).
Half of that is pen table but at AP4 you can't explode the raider, so that brings an unsupported riptide's total hull point damage of an AV14 vehicle to 0.52 hull points per turn (that's an average of 8 turns to take down a landraider!), while sustaining 0.55 wounds a turn back. Point for point you win out because the landraider costs more... but that's still not at all an effective use of your points in my opinion.

Now the best case scenario is a bit of a different story... a fully supported bursttide, with 2 markerlights and the ECPA (which would mean no shadowsun but prevents you from overheating on the nova charge significantly); a total of 210 points:
So we begin with our novacharge, this time we have a 2/6 rerollable, or a 88.9% success rate!
12 shots, 11.7 hit and 0.055 wounds (keeping in mind this is still only 88.9% of the time, so 10.4 and 0.048 respectively).
11.7 hits becomes 3.575 6s (3.18 average).
Needing 2 or 3, that's a total of 2.38 hullpoints (2.12 average).
An average of 2 turns for a landraider kill is pretty damn good. But it does force you to run Enclaves (I have no problem with that buuuuut) which means no Shadowsun.

So let's run one last crunch, the middle of the road option where you bring shadowsun and light support but give up the ECPA; 180 points again:
That nasty 1/3 chance of burning out is what is really hurting you. 0.33 wounds to yourself and 2/3 chance of actually firing your 12 rending shots.
12 shots, 11.7 hits, 0.055 self wounds (7.8 and 0.037 respectively).
3.575 6s, which becomes 2.38 hullpoints. 1.59 hullpoints a turn once you factor in those initial burn outs.

Pretty huge range of differences between the fully supported and the unsupported. It works, but can be ineffective if your opponent takes out your markerlights, and downright self harming if shadowsun's drone can't do its magic. Consider the ECPA.
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Old 26 May 2015, 11:43   #12 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 88

Thank you so much for so perfectly illustrating the odds on this.
I agree, it's decent to nail AV14 if supported -properly-. Turn 2 should hopefully see me land markerlights. It's a chance for a destroyed LR, and 4d6 turn 1 gets that vantage.
Fusion counts for something, too. Remember that tankhunter xD

Landing more than one trick, idk.... but to set up for deepstriking crisis to finish the job, awesome. I feel a dual suit double fusion is so nice! Going triple is half the cost as it took each of the double suit in pts for the same power,math-hammering... but knowing there's other stuff on the board will bring me a little peace. Losing two crisis to assaulting terminators I spilled outa the LR is sooo worth to me.

I really like Shadowsuns stealth/shroud, marching her up with kroot infiltration and piranhas - squading her with the drones, pulling autocover 2+ behind the AV11 squadron... let them shoot all turn at me bahaha

If the Riptide doesn't Nova, I'll know at start of turn at least so I won't target the AV14 - putting more weight behind the crisis.

I am really fond of broadsides with HYMP SMS x2 (firebase cadre for tankhunter), and the ethereal to grant them LD buff, and nifty tricks like twinlinked snapshots at flyers (which would be anyways) after move 6" + d6" run (Zephyrs grace), put them down. EWO seems the best option for them, let's them protect themselves from deepstrikers - and SMS after running into cover just in case (ewo denying HYMP fire following turn).

Shadowsun could grant them stealth/shroud saves, keeping the pricey unit alive.

I don't mean to ramble on, just to say why I feel fine vs AV13 or less after so many shots (whole squadrons can fall!)

It's that AV14 that's the issue. I'll field a crisis team, I personally will roll Shadowsun cuz she's a big part of my early game, that's nice for fusion fire. Putting her in broadside unit give her tankhunter (should I be forced into a back-to-wall situation - however unlikely. Connect the drones lol!).

If there were still S10 railsides, I'd have a full team with target lock. Yeah.
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Old 26 May 2015, 11:50   #13 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
Join Date: Mar 2015
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In a money-on-the-line tournament mode list.... I would either consider different early game antics and avoid shadowsun, or I'd field another crisis suit team - seeing as there's really nothing else that'll turn by turn consistently knock that stuff out.

I have a FW 6man w/ emp just in case there's multiple LR's ... force them to either dive ahead with units and make a mess of models to keep them, or avoid a whole 20" patch of table. I plan to take advantage of of this either way (supporting fire en masse and recurring shooting phase tripleshot by ethereal) .
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Old 26 May 2015, 15:05   #14 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
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I see three viewpoints here, and agree with each of them!

It's down to playstyle ;]
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Old 27 May 2015, 11:58   #15 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
Join Date: Mar 2015
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Wanted to say thanks, again

Hits the concept - right on!

Bursttide can seriously threaten flyers (in truth, Velocity Trackers are necessary to rely on this) and mass infantry (ap4 can certainly find its uses).

I like how it can't be avoided via spacing troops out as pieplate can be... and rending when it does hit, is so cool! ATS compliments this perfectly, for riptides who happen to have the free support slot =P
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Old 19 Nov 2015, 20:13   #16 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
Join Date: Nov 2015
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Personally, I would just jet pack my army away from the land raider lol Or maybe give it a cheap squad to charge. Then after the poor squad dies tragically we can decimate the inside goo next turn. Maybe park a devilfish in front of it to slow it down. If he's impatient let him charge the devilfish or firewarriors. Not a terrible loss to get those insides out. The inside is probably 500 points or more and their guns are likely sub-par. A land raider by itself really isn't scary, and I find if you try and tailor your list to be able to take one out easily, you end up missing a lot of important things in your army.
I say, let the Land Raider come, let them get out, charge, and eat supporting fire for breakfast.

If you're really set on taking it out and the guys you play run multiple land raiders, besides fusion crisis squads, you can run hammerheads, ghostkeels, the dataslate that gives railsides tank hunter. In reality though, a suicide fusion crisis squad is cheaper than a land raider and can reliably kill it.

Last edited by gromo; 19 Nov 2015 at 20:22.
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Old 20 Nov 2015, 04:04   #17 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
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Keeping an eye on what matters most
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