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Vespids, potential uses?
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Old 05 Feb 2014, 01:10   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Vespids, potential uses?

I have seen some various comments floating around that Vespids are bad, but looking at their unit entry and points cost I think can at least be situationally good. For 18 points each you get a 4+ save jump infantry unit with a S5 AP3 Assault 1 gun with 18" range. And with fleet hit and run and stealth (ruins) they seem pretty survivable. I think the main use for them would be to deep strike to take out devastator squads or perhaps a backfield tactical squad sitting on an objective. The neutron blaster just seems like it would absolutely murder marines. Any thoughts?
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Old 05 Feb 2014, 04:42   #2 (permalink)
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The biggest problem with Vespids is the fact that for most uses there is another codex unit that can do it better. Even if we were to just compare Vespids to an equivalent unit with a pulse carbine, Vespids would be worse against every target except MEQ's.

For example, to get the same number of wounds against an MEQ as a 10-man Vespid squad, you would need 20 kroot. Granted they would have to be at 12" rather than 18" and are slower moving, taking a hound in the squad would let them outflank pretty well and fill the backfield objective taker role pretty well. But with that many extra bodies, their 6+ armor save and T3 will make them more resilient to anything heavier than bolter fire. This is all beside the fact that Kroot have more weapon options and better performance in close combat due to their numbers, and the fact that they have an AP5 combat weapon even despite their lower armor save. Compared to the 10-man Vespid squad I'm using as a refrence, the Kroot cost about 55 pts less as well.

BS3 with a 1 shot weapon means that you need 2 Vespids to score 1 hit on average. That means that even against marines with no cover involved, you need about 3 shots per 1 dead marine. Vespids cap out at 12 models, so even a maxed squad would only drop 4 marines with any reliability. Even with a follow-up assault, they might drop 1 - 2 more before the rest swing. They just don't have the statline to be useful, and preform in a role that can easily be filled by other models with greater versatility and / or less cost.

I have yet to see a 6th edition battle report that has Vespids doing favorably, much less killing their value in points.
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Old 05 Feb 2014, 05:15   #3 (permalink)
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Making the Neutron Blaster assault 2 would go a long way toward making Vespid more worthwhile. If Vespid had that kind of weapon and were a couple points cheaper, I'd love to see them fit into the troops slot. That or move Pathfinders into troops to free up that empty fast attack slot.


What I really want to see is a Tau Auxiliaries supplement that allows for an army based on Kroot, Vespid, and maybe one or two new auxiliary units... even official Gue'vesa would be cool.

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Old 05 Feb 2014, 07:49   #4 (permalink)
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I would love such a supplement, given my love for Gue'vesa.

I have plans to build proxied Vespid from Imperial Storm Troopers, as there's good odds that GW will update them to plastic in the new IG Codex. I was thinking of buying Grav Chutes from FW for Jump Packs, and kitbashing them up some "Hotshot Pulseguns."
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Old 05 Feb 2014, 19:00   #5 (permalink)
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Honestly I think what they need the most is a stronger statline. They are supposed to be the specialty unit eliminator, the hard hitting, fast moving assault squad to the footslogging mob tar-pit of the Kroot. As it stands now in large groups they can be effective, but end up being a huge point-sink for a capability that could have been done more inexpensively by different units. Assault 1 on their weapon is the main reason why they are shite outside of combat, and their awkward statline lets them be easily mobbed by units it can kill, but unable to kill smaller units they're supposedly effective at eliminating. Turning their weapon into an AP3 pulse carbine would be a fantastic boost, but does little to address the awful statline that gets their ass handed to them in combat even by non CC units that also cost much less. Giving them a marine statline with WS and BS 4 might be too much to ask for, but it would make them unique in that they do not rely on the 'more of weaker' approach Tau employ. An alternative would be to leave their statline alone for the most part, but give them 2 attacks base. Or, leave it the same entirely but give them a CCW and a pulse pistol. This at least would keep them from getting so easily mobbed, though not nearly beneficial enough to allow them to fight marines.

Vespids need to soften up a target before the assault, but they have no strength once they get there. I think in addition to making their weapon Assault 2, they either need to come close to matching marines blow for blow (WS4, S4, T4, A1), or they need to be able to put out more attacks, and have access to some AP3 / AP2 CC weapons with the Strain leader. (WS 3, S3, T4, A2) (Strain leader with A3, and an AP3 . AP2 version of the equalizer) All of that for no increase in base cost, and they would be worth taking.
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Old 08 Feb 2014, 14:50   #6 (permalink)
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I have just got back from a 600pt tournament, and my vespids killed a whole squad of marines(6 dead, the rest failed their Ld test and ran off the table). I agree that they are bad units if used badly, but if you mainly face marines and you play mech or hybrid tau(they are awful in static tau), they can sweep the board if you use them right.
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Old 08 Feb 2014, 19:25   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaneOfTheGuard View Post
I have just got back from a 600pt tournament, and my vespids killed a whole squad of marines(6 dead, the rest failed their Ld test and ran off the table). I agree that they are bad units if used badly, but if you mainly face marines and you play mech or hybrid tau(they are awful in static tau), they can sweep the board if you use them right.
This is exactly what I was thinking of. I do in fact face mainly marines.
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Old 08 Feb 2014, 23:12   #8 (permalink)
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Once I get my Counts-as made for them, they'll see combat.
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Old 09 Feb 2014, 02:21   #9 (permalink)
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What are you making your counts as out of, CoffeeGrunt?
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Old 09 Feb 2014, 08:56   #10 (permalink)
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There's rumours that Storm Troopers will be getting an update, so I'm waiting for Guard to drop to see. If so, I'm gunna kitbash them some "hotshot pulseguns" and jump packs.
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