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Old 22 Mar 2009, 20:47   #1 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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I agree with Vash.

I dont see this as a mistake, I see it as a plan I had that I lost control over. Big whoop.

You say they are a rare occurence? do you know why? Because we already have a system that works.
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Old 23 Mar 2009, 06:58   #2 (permalink)
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I don't think we really need any kind of "Regulator" type psuedo-mod. I think only really a couple things need to happen.

Firstly, when the stuff blew up about Vashes yellow Termies/models, I remember him stating in the topic addressing that later that only Mods in their respective forums actually HAD their powers in those forums; outside their own forums, Mods functioned identically to other members. Globals obviously can do what the want; Admins regulate everything on top of that.

Apparently this isn't true though, what Vash said. As can be plainly seen in the "Anton gone" topic (will link if needed), JD repeatedly did not follow this precept. Of course, as he said, there is apparently no rules about that either. Again, however, I find that ironic, considering both Wargamer and JD were arguing about fluff basically being the rules...

Therefore, I think a few new rules should be implemented regarding normal Mod powers. The first should be as Vash thought/alluded to: that Mods can only have their powers in their OWN boards, and nowhere else. While this may not have stopped certain instances, it would have at least limited the damage, or else it would have stopped them. And of course these shouldn't just be "rules" because rules can be broken; these restrictions should be enabled in the site settings or whatever, so they can't break the rule in the first place.

Secondly, I think some sort of "equal damage, equal punishment" rule/guideline should be created. Most of the rules are pretty clear about things, but a lot of it could be made much clearer. As Sidstyler said on the thread, some cursing is no big deal, ie., "Damn, that's pretty bad," etc. But the stuff that Wargamer, JD, and others have been spouting off lately is unacceptable, particularly-actually-especially considering this site is oriented towards all age groups and types of people with regards to those who play or are interested in 40k. I mean, what if some 12 or 13 year-old kid was on the forums, and a parent oversaw some of the stuff going on lately? Some parents might not care, but if yours were like mine, my parents would ban me from going there again; we could lose a lot of potential members like this, kids who might grow up playing the game, would be lost! Likewise, particularly harsh posts such as, again, the "Anton Gone" thread, and the one it resulted from should be banned. I realize this is rather subjective, but then, what's not? The study of mathematics is about the only field I can think of off-hand. Any, that kind of language, and particular back-talk against correction/punishment of it, should itself be severely punished, particularly if it's between Mods or anyone in authority.

When one or two members' comments, be they Mod or not, lead to a member's deciding to leave the site, possibly permanently, and further possibly leading to quiting the hobby, I think that, given reasonable evidence, etc., they should IMMEDIATELY banned, possibly permanently, until the point that the resigned member comes back AND approves of the offender(s) coming back, in a similar way that, if a person were assaulted, raped, maimed, disabled, etc., the offender's fate should lie, once it's proved what happened, in the victim's hands, unless he chooses not to judge in the first place. I'm sorry, but doing everything but forcing a member, and not just a regular like myself, but a HIGHLY RESPECTED contributer and MOD HIMSELF to leave the boards, without even a word, is totally, utterly, and completely unacceptable. To me it feels like some kind of insane situation like a SEAL talking another SEAL into committing suicide. Said person(s) should be made an example of. Worse, considering that people like JD and Wargamer may still be around later, and have their punishments lifted, it could all happen ALL over AGAIN, leading to even MORE damage; not unlike repeat rapists. And THEN on top of THAT, if they keep skirting the rules of the forums (or hey, "fluff" behind the rules, "common courtesy"), bad behavior, etc., will spread like a cancer, slowly but surely, ending only either the successful treatment, or the death of the patient...I've seen this happen to at least two sites I can think of that I used to post on awhile ago: NerfOnline, and NerfCenter. NC used to be THE place to go for all things Nerf...but it shriveled up on the inside and died because a few bastards got away with what they wanted, and the people in authority were too scared to put'em down.

Anyway, the point is, I think the rules need to be fleshed out, Mod powers need to be restricted, and punishments scaled with the stupidity occurring.

I compare a lot of what's going on now, and my recent experiences at the local hobby shop in town in Warrensburg, MO, to what would occur on the strip at a fencing tournament. Things are FAR less lenient there. Granted, most people there are wielding "weapons," but of the three "weapons" of Olympic-style sport fencing, only one can really hurt someone (epee) and even then the odds are against it. Here's a typical scenario mirroring what's happening right now:

[hr]
*fencers fencing*
Referee: "Halt" (stops the bout) "Attack from left, no, parry-riposte (deflect attack, counter-attack after parry) from right, yes, remise off-target. Point Right"
Attacker: "But my attack was just one action, it was indirect!"
Referee: "Yellow card to the left for debating point-of-fact and delaying the bout."
Attacker: "What?! That's bullshit! I want the bout committee!"
Referee: "Red card for disrupting order on the strip." Leaves to get BC representative.
*Discussion of both fencers, ref, and BC*
BC: "Referee made call, as what he observes and states as actions are considered as fact, citing the Rules. Red card for unjustified appeal."
*BC leaves*
Referee: "Fencers On Guard."
Attacker: "Ah, that's horseshit, I WAS beating this guy's ass up until you started sucking!" *throws mask ("helmet") into the wall and walks off*
Referee: "Red card for disturbing order on AND leaving the strip. Further, Black Card for unsportsmanlike conduct. I'll call the BC to escort you off the premises."

I'll explain the "Cards."
"Yellow" Card is a warning; it has no effect on your standing on anything, but is noted on the tourney records. It usually preceds the other cards; however, you only ever are awarded ONE yellow card; after that, it's all Reds.
"Red" card is the standard penalty after Yellows, and are given for most infractions; they count as a point against the offender, but since the scoring changed, it now gives a point to the offender's opponent. So, in the above example, by the "end" of the bout, if the score had been 6-4 for the offender, it would have been 6-6 by the end.
"Black" card is the worst card. If this happens, you are at minimum dropped from that particular event (ie., Men's Open Foil), but not necessarily from the whole tourney, which can consist of multiple events. You can, however, depending on previous events, be banned from the event, day, tourney, or venue, for varying lengths of time. You could theoretically be banned for instance from a venue indefinitely, so that if a given tourney is run every year at the same place, and you're banned from the venue for 5 years, you CANNOT compete at that place for 5 years; this removes a tourney from your yearly schedule, and therefore interferes with your results later, rankings, ratings, all kinds of stuff.
[hr]

As you could see reading this, the kind of stuff that passes here and at a lot of gaming stores would NOT be tolerated in the slightest. If the above happened, the LEAST that would happen would be giving up 3 points in a row; the worst would be banned from various classes of competition for various lengths of time. It simply does NOT fly.

And that's what really, really irks me. Again, as Sid pointed out in the other thread, some of the members and staff are taking severe enough actions that members are LEAVING, over a GAME played with, though complex PLASTIC ARMY MEN; and it's not even about that, it's about the dark fiction behind said toys. Expensive, complex, etc.? Yes. But then, so is fencing. However, the fencing community usually realizes in reality (though not necessarily on the Internet...) when people are that disruptive to the fencing community, they are dealth with, harshly, because if not, many more will simply leave the sport because of ONE or TWO bastards' actions. And the crap going on here isn't even over material objects: it's about make-believe FICTION that doesn't exist in any sense of the word except as thoughts and concepts and as ink on paper; we're alienating people from our collective pasttime because a couple here think that something that DOESN'T EXIST is more important than PEOPLE. That's uh, that's great...

I mean, there IS that whole thick skin thing, be honest, etc. I myself am like that, I prefer things told to me straight-up. However, I also recognize that if I tell a customer at Walmart that they really DO need to get better soap and sponges because they're ass-ugly, I'll get fired. If I didn't have the job (and then again, if I did) I'd get slapped, and/or beaten the crap out of by his/her girl/boyfriend. I mean, that just doesn't pass in public, and it doesn't pass here.

And then there's the quote JD put up in that other topic about comments and being "honest":

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmenual Kant
If the truth shall kill them then let them die.
So I mean, we should die because we disagree? We should die because we don't like what someone says, or how they say it?

That may or may not be what he was implying, but the emphasis on me is not lost.

That'd be like, again in fencing, if a coach were to tell a 10-year-old beginner after a practice or two, that he needs to slightly change an action, and the kid didn't feel like it, the coach just abruptly told him, "Well then quit, you'll never be able to fence at all that way! Go on, leave!" Can you imagine what that would do to the sport over the course of about 20 years? What about 40k? What about [shot in the dark] cancer patients or people with diabetes? Should they just go off and commit suicide because they don't care for a particular med or something?

I'm sorry about the book, but I am trying to not just state my case, but my thoughts, reasoning, and examples behind it. Ultimately, I feel both JD and Wargamer overstepped their bounds, considerably, far more than most. I haven't seen much of JD's posts to say, but almost every since I've been on here, Wargamer has been a real bastard. He gets away with things, says things, that no one else could almost ever get away with. And it sets a terrible example. He's been a thorn in my own and I think probably a lot of other peoples' sides for a long time now. It would be different if he were disciplined like the others, but that's usually not what happens: when he gets fired up and crap, and people argue back, nothing happens to either party; the topic is just closed, with the generic "Don't do it again" warning.

Oh, and one final thing (promise), and this is coming from my extensive leadership background all the way from Junior year in High School when I commanded a drill team for that year and the year after, to leading the UCM Fencing Club for 2 years, and advising still: the stuff that happened here is completely and totally unacceptable. This would be like two drill team sergeants arguing over floor space, or two REAL sergeants arguing over battle tactics while the bullets are flying on the field: it simply CANNOT happen. If it does, and they survive, their subordinates will have a lasting, terrible impression of both leaders that will destroy morale and undermine the leadership and authority. This is another reason why mods need their powers limited: to keep public inter-debate within the leadership to a minimum. That kind of stuff makes the ENTIRE mod staff look bad.

That's really all I got for now. I appologize AGAIN for the book, but I felt I had to say all that. I know I don't post a great deal, but I do keep up on the boards, and seeing this kind of stuff makes me flinch. If this kinda stuff happened at my club here at UCM, it would dispand within two weeks simply because no one wanted to deal with the BS. And it wouldn't recombobulate for at least a couple years, simply because that kind of crap leaves a real lasting impression on everyone.
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Old 23 Mar 2009, 09:11   #3 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimberwolfCY

Apparently this isn't true though, what Vash said. As can be plainly seen in the "Anton gone" topic (will link if needed), JD repeatedly did not follow this precept. Of course, as he said, there is apparently no rules about that either. Again, however, I find that ironic, considering both Wargamer and JD were arguing about fluff basically being the rules...

Therefore, I think a few new rules should be implemented regarding normal Mod powers. The first should be as Vash thought/alluded to: that Mods can only have their powers in their OWN boards, and nowhere else. While this may not have stopped certain instances, it would have at least limited the damage, or else it would have stopped them. And of course these shouldn't just be "rules" because rules can be broken; these restrictions should be enabled in the site settings or whatever, so they can't break the rule in the first place.
This is how it works. No one can take any actions in boards they aren't designated to run. Globals and Admins obviously have free reign over the forum to keep tabs on everything. The confusion occurred due to Mods being able to delete their posts/thread in any board. That's how JD removed his thread.


As for the main topic; this is really unnecessary. It isn't going to make things run smoother and any member who would be eligible to become a Regulator would definitely be a candidate for a Moderator position anyway. Regardless, we essentially already have Regulators, they're call Global Moderators and keep tabs on everyone, including us moderators. It seems redundant to add another position in a system that works perfectly fine now.
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Old 23 Mar 2009, 10:32   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cadaver
we essentially already have Regulators, they're call Global Moderators and keep tabs on everyone, including us moderators
Wargamer's a good mate of mine (I don't think that's a secret), and I agree that the proposed position of "Regulator" is unnecessary, but Cadaver - isn't all this fuss essentially about a Global Moderator abusing their status (not power) against another member - a moderator no less - so surely at least that particular Global can't be trusted in the same way?

I'm not suggesting a ban for him, but if that is the role of the Global then maybe he could have his powers stripped (even if only temporarily) and TRULY be treated like any other member of the forum - because we all know this is not the case.

And Wargamer, if you're reading this, before you cry "JUDAS!" - do you need to be a GMod to enjoy the forum? You weren't always a GMod, of course.

On the subject of the other transgressor in this particular issue, perhaps JD should have his powers stripped too? Again, not necessarily permanently, rather pending probation?

I think what is important here is that the forum staff are perceived to have done something. Regardless of my feelings about the bloke, people are hit by Anton's abrupt departure and if the "perpetrators" go "free" then people will begin to lose faith in the administration and this isn't a country - they can't rise up and revolt, replacing the "government" - they'll just leave. And I don't want that to happen.
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Well I'd rather not play the game at all than play it like they did! :P
Crikey! This crazy clown causes commotion like the coming of Christ. Contained in a circle corrupted by crackheads and carnal cravings, he creates no concession to callous cheaters concentrating on nought but cock. Certainly, still a curious and cordial cavalier in the countenance of crazed cads, curs and creeps who condemn courtesy as something corny. No cloud could collapse his crushing crescendo of comical crowing and crimson coiffure. This conjecture on culture comes circumlocutive, consequently...

You may call me Circus.
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Old 23 Mar 2009, 11:18   #5 (permalink)
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If you hadnt noticed... I havnt been a mod for a few days now.
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Old 23 Mar 2009, 11:36   #6 (permalink)
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I've split this from the Regulator topic as it is entirely a seperate issue.

[hr]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cadaver
This is how it works. No one can take any actions in boards they aren't designated to run. Globals and Admins obviously have free reign over the forum to keep tabs on everything. The confusion occurred due to Mods being able to delete their posts/thread in any board. That's how JD removed his thread.
Which has subsequently been tightened up to stop that from happening again.
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Old 24 Mar 2009, 05:23   #7 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Circus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cadaver
we essentially already have Regulators, they're call Global Moderators and keep tabs on everyone, including us moderators
Wargamer's a good mate of mine (I don't think that's a secret), and I agree that the proposed position of "Regulator" is unnecessary, but Cadaver - isn't all this fuss essentially about a Global Moderator abusing their status (not power) against another member - a moderator no less - so surely at least that particular Global can't be trusted in the same way?

I'm not suggesting a ban for him, but if that is the role of the Global then maybe he could have his powers stripped (even if only temporarily) and TRULY be treated like any other member of the forum - because we all know this is not the case.

And Wargamer, if you're reading this, before you cry "JUDAS!" - do you need to be a GMod to enjoy the forum? You weren't always a GMod, of course.

On the subject of the other transgressor in this particular issue, perhaps JD should have his powers stripped too? Again, not necessarily permanently, rather pending probation?

I think what is important here is that the forum staff are perceived to have done something. Regardless of my feelings about the bloke, people are hit by Anton's abrupt departure and if the "perpetrators" go "free" then people will begin to lose faith in the administration and this isn't a country - they can't rise up and revolt, replacing the "government" - they'll just leave. And I don't want that to happen.
Well, the the next step is another Global or the Admin. I think that some people have this perception that we're some tight knit clique that will defend one another unjustly and ignore any abuses by other Moderators or Globals. The fact is, while we all communicate alot and for the most part are all friendly with each other, it doesn't blind us to any indiscretions or abuses that may come up.

JD lost his moderator status due to his actions and Wargamer had his warning level raised. The difference between the two is that Wargamer posted a huge font saying, "WRONG!," in response to a post by Anton, whereas JD was flaming members in several threads and ignoring warnings from me via PM about his posting and his attitude.

Both apologized for it but we felt JD had lost the trust of both the staff and the members to be someone representing this website. Wargamer has been on notice and will be watched closely and if further instances occur, for harsh measures may be taken. But I don't feel that what he did required him to be removed from his position.

Personally, I don't have ill will towards either of them for what transpired but I did feel JD was someone who should no longer be in a position to represent the website.
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Old 24 Mar 2009, 05:36   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Personally, I don't have ill will towards either of them for what transpired but I did feel JD was someone who should no longer be in a position to represent the website.
I laugh at you and your own incompetence to be straight with me, you've always danced around the issued like Native americans around a ceremony fire. Don't sugarcoat this issue. You don't like me, personally. And if you genuinly didnt have a problem personally you wouldnt say you didnt in the first place.

As far as i'm concerned Wargamer was the reason anton left, and because anton said my name i'm suddenly in more shit than I should be and wargamer isn't copping anything for it (more power to him I guess). Every time wargamer flames a member someone smites him and do nothing more... the first instance i flame someone i'm de-modded and almost banned for it...

Tell me how any of that is fair and then i'll listen to your sad story.

I'll post more when I get home after work.
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Old 24 Mar 2009, 05:51   #9 (permalink)
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Honestly Jeff, just stop. I'm your friend, you know that, but please stop. You've lost. No mater what you say, you can't get it back. You did wrong in the eyes of many, and whilst you say different, they see otherwise. Just drop it and maybe you can work back to what you were....

And realy, is it that important to you to be a moderator?
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Old 24 Mar 2009, 05:53   #10 (permalink)
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I dont care I was de-modded. Thats fine with me...

but cant they just bloody drop it now?
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