[Antisocialnerd]

Hello i'm planning on using this list for a tournament coming up soon and would like to hear any suggestions any of you may have.

1750 Pts - Tau Empire Roster

Total Roster Cost: 1750

HQ: Commander Shas'el (1#, 90 pts)
1 Commander Shas'el, 90 pts = (base cost 50 + Burst Cannon 8 + Hard-wired Multi-tracker 5 + Missile Pod 12 + Positional Relay 15)

Fast Attack: Pathfinder (11#, 226 pts)
8 Pathfinder, 96 pts = 8 * 12
1 Devilfish, 130 pts = (base cost 80 + Disruption Pod 5 + Flechette Discharger 10 + Multi-Tracker 10 + Seeker Missile x2 20) + Targeting Array 5

Fast Attack: Pathfinder (11#, 226 pts)
8 Pathfinder, 96 pts = 8 * 12
1 Devilfish, 130 pts = (base cost 80 + Disruption Pod 5 + Flechette Discharger 10 + Multi-Tracker 10 + Seeker Missile x2 20) + Targeting Array 5

Fast Attack: Pathfinder (11#, 226 pts)
8 Pathfinder, 96 pts = 8 * 12
1 Devilfish, 130 pts = (base cost 80 + Disruption Pod 5 + Flechette Discharger 10 + Multi-Tracker 10 + Seeker Missile x2 20) + Targeting Array 5

Troops: Fire Warrior (6#, 60 pts)
6 Fire Warrior, 60 pts = 6 * 10

Troops: Fire Warrior (6#, 60 pts)
6 Fire Warrior, 60 pts = 6 * 10

Troops: Fire Warrior (6#, 60 pts)
6 Fire Warrior, 60 pts = 6 * 10

HQ will link up with this unit
Troops: Fire Warrior (11#, 110 pts)
11 Fire Warrior, 110 pts = 11 * 10

Heavy Support: Broadside Battlesuit (3#, 265 pts)
1 Broadside Battlesuit, 95 pts = (base cost 70 + Hard-wired Target Lock 5 + Twin Linked Plasma Rifle 10 + Multi-Tracker 5 + Team Leader 5)
1 Broadside Battlesuit, 85 pts = (base cost 70 + Twin Linked Plasma Rifle 10 + Multi-Tracker 5)
1 Broadside Battlesuit, 85 pts = (base cost 70 + Twin Linked Plasma Rifle 10 + Multi-Tracker 5)

Heavy Support: Broadside Battlesuit (3#, 265 pts)
1 Broadside Battlesuit, 95 pts = (base cost 70 + Hard-wired Target Lock 5 + Twin Linked Plasma Rifle 10 + Multi-Tracker 5 + Team Leader 5)
1 Broadside Battlesuit, 85 pts = (base cost 70 + Twin Linked Plasma Rifle 10 + Multi-Tracker 5)
1 Broadside Battlesuit, 85 pts = (base cost 70 + Twin Linked Plasma Rifle 10 + Multi-Tracker 5)

Single unit Tank Hunting Monats drop one on turn two using the relay then drop another or if needed attempt to drop last two on the 3+

Elite: Crisis Battlesuit (1#, 54 pts)
1 Crisis Battlesuit, 54 pts = (base cost 25 + Fusion Blaster 12 + Missile Pod 12 + Multi-Tracker 5)

Elite: Crisis Battlesuit (1#, 54 pts)
1 Crisis Battlesuit, 54 pts = (base cost 25 + Fusion Blaster 12 + Missile Pod 12 + Multi-Tracker 5)

Elite: Crisis Battlesuit (1#, 54 pts)
1 Crisis Battlesuit, 54 pts = (base cost 25 + Fusion Blaster 12 + Missile Pod 12 + Multi-Tracker 5)

Alternatively i could trim down the Hq's Firewarrior team remove the relay drop the crisis suits and put in a pimped out hammerhead tank like this one

Heavy Support: Hammerhead Gunship (1#, 195 pts)
1 Hammerhead Gunship, 195 pts = (base cost 90 + Railgun 50 + Two Burst Cannons 10 + Disruption Pod 5 + Flechette Discharger 10 + Multi-Tracker 10 + Seeker Missile x2 20)

Alternatively again i could drop the fourth firewarrior team turn the HQ into a tank hunting monat and instead of the crisis suits or hammerhead i could place in a third Broadside team.

[lokyar]

to much pathfinders
you need 2 groups max
the 3rd is a waste for so far (your not going to use 'em)
and can u put a crisis in a infantry unit????

[KuroRyu]

I'm not sure wether I agree with Lokyar or not, 3 full squads of pathfinders seems a lot but that means a lot of markerlights and you can mark 3 targets.

On the other hand I'm not sure you have enough fire warriors...hmm small 6 man squads will get raped very quickly by anything that hits them.

[Antisocialnerd]

The firewarriors will naturally stay in the devilfish with extra assault protection with the flechette but yeah if they lose the devilfish they'll be toasted fairly handy my hope in some sense is to take out enough lascannons/heavy weapons early on so that the devilfish will be relatively safe this would be particularly true if i decide to go with three broadside teams.

@Loykar The HQ is an independent character and should be able to join any unit by my understanding.

as for the third pathfinder team i'm very much going to use them i can split my broadsides into three teams of two thanks to the target locks on the leaders so i can mark three tanks that have popped smoke negate that cover maybe add one bs to the broadsides and hopefully kill three tank/transports

alternatively i could guide both three man units to a big or expensive target such as landraider stormraven gunship monolith etc and use the third to launch some of my seeker missiles.

and all thats before you get into guiding my Hq firewarrior team or to lower leadership boost BS for another team of pathfinders to pin a giant horde or for the inevitability of losing a team of pathfinders and even if i don't use the markerlights their still armed with 5 5 pinning weapons i'm sure they'll find something to do

and at the end of the day i could still field that third team of broadsides so straight away i have three teams that would love to have markerlight support.

Also noone with a vote for what way to configure the last bit of my list suits hammerhead or broadsides?

[newdigitalblue]

HQ: Commander Shas'el (1#, 90 pts)
1 Commander Shas'el, 90 pts = (base cost 50 + Burst Cannon 8 + Hard-wired Multi-tracker 5 + Missile Pod 12 + Positional Relay 15)

I hate taking a burst cannon on a crisis suit especially an HQ. Go or the CIB it's actually pretty good however you need BS 5 to really make it usefull.

Fast Attack: Pathfinder (11#, 226 pts)
8 Pathfinder, 96 pts = 8 * 12
1 Devilfish, 130 pts = (base cost 80 + Disruption Pod 5 + Flechette Discharger 10 + Multi-Tracker 10 + Seeker Missile x2 20) + Targeting Array 5

Fast Attack: Pathfinder (11#, 226 pts)
8 Pathfinder, 96 pts = 8 * 12
1 Devilfish, 130 pts = (base cost 80 + Disruption Pod 5 + Flechette Discharger 10 + Multi-Tracker 10 + Seeker Missile x2 20) + Targeting Array 5

Fast Attack: Pathfinder (11#, 226 pts)
8 Pathfinder, 96 pts = 8 * 12
1 Devilfish, 130 pts = (base cost 80 + Disruption Pod 5 + Flechette Discharger 10 + Multi-Tracker 10 + Seeker Missile x2 20) + Targeting Array 5

That's a lot of pathfinders...I would really look into taking one down then you can do massive upgrades all arround.

Troops: Fire Warrior (6#, 60 pts)
6 Fire Warrior, 60 pts = 6 * 10

Troops: Fire Warrior (6#, 60 pts)
6 Fire Warrior, 60 pts = 6 * 10

Troops: Fire Warrior (6#, 60 pts)
6 Fire Warrior, 60 pts = 6 * 10

HQ will link up with this unit
Troops: Fire Warrior (11#, 110 pts)
11 Fire Warrior, 110 pts = 11 * 10

Not bad however even with a HQ unit in the last unit a heavy flammer would ruin your day. Also AP 3 shots would also ruin your day or even AP 4 I would look into getting at least one or two shield drones

Heavy Support: Broadside Battlesuit (3#, 265 pts)
1 Broadside Battlesuit, 95 pts = (base cost 70 + Hard-wired Target Lock 5 + Twin Linked Plasma Rifle 10 + Multi-Tracker 5 + Team Leader 5)
1 Broadside Battlesuit, 85 pts = (base cost 70 + Twin Linked Plasma Rifle 10 + Multi-Tracker 5)
1 Broadside Battlesuit, 85 pts = (base cost 70 + Twin Linked Plasma Rifle 10 + Multi-Tracker 5)

Heavy Support: Broadside Battlesuit (3#, 265 pts)
1 Broadside Battlesuit, 95 pts = (base cost 70 + Hard-wired Target Lock 5 + Twin Linked Plasma Rifle 10 + Multi-Tracker 5 + Team Leader 5)
1 Broadside Battlesuit, 85 pts = (base cost 70 + Twin Linked Plasma Rifle 10 + Multi-Tracker 5)
1 Broadside Battlesuit, 85 pts = (base cost 70 + Twin Linked Plasma Rifle 10 + Multi-Tracker 5)

I like me some broadsides... but Shield Drones man Shield drones!!!! Also I like SMS better then plasma Rifles. LOS can be a big thing.

Single unit Tank Hunting Monats drop one on turn two using the relay then drop another or if needed attempt to drop last two on the 3+

Elite: Crisis Battlesuit (1#, 54 pts)
1 Crisis Battlesuit, 54 pts = (base cost 25 + Fusion Blaster 12 + Missile Pod 12 + Multi-Tracker 5)

Elite: Crisis Battlesuit (1#, 54 pts)
1 Crisis Battlesuit, 54 pts = (base cost 25 + Fusion Blaster 12 + Missile Pod 12 + Multi-Tracker 5)

Elite: Crisis Battlesuit (1#, 54 pts)
1 Crisis Battlesuit, 54 pts = (base cost 25 + Fusion Blaster 12 + Missile Pod 12 + Multi-Tracker 5)

This is really intersting idea and I like it however I think twinlinking FB would be a better option then FB MP. Especially if they are for tank hunting. I would suggest doing each of them on the pos relay because if you bring one in that's all you get and with 2-3 pathfinder devilfih you will most likely land where you want to. However once they land they will be mince meat so I would look into making them as cheap as can be because more then likely they will be shot to pieces after landing so they will need one good shot... on that note I would think about twinlink targeting array because you really need that one shot to hit.

Alternatively i could trim down the Hq's Firewarrior team remove the relay drop the crisis suits and put in a pimped out hammerhead tank like this one

Heavy Support: Hammerhead Gunship (1#, 195 pts)
1 Hammerhead Gunship, 195 pts = (base cost 90 + Railgun 50 + Two Burst Cannons 10 + Disruption Pod 5 + Flechette Discharger 10 + Multi-Tracker 10 + Seeker Missile x2 20)

Alternatively again i could drop the fourth firewarrior team turn the HQ into a tank hunting monat and instead of the crisis suits or hammerhead i could place in a third Broadside team.

Hammerheads are great however you have a lot of Str 10 weapons with 2 full teams of broadsides I would actually look into taking a ion Head. The only thing it really doesn't work well agienst is terminators and the only thing you really lose is the pie however from what you have been talking about you aren't looking at templates as a nessessity. Plus it's cheap.

[tehlegend]

ok, looking at your list, i can see a few things wrong. first and foremost is the third pathfinder squad. I'd let you slide in 2250 or higher, and 2000 if you give me a really good reason, but theres almost no way to justify taking so many markerlights. If you were running a seeker alpha strike with 2 skyrays, this would most likely still be excessive. they're eating up points for another half a squad of ANYTHING that can shoot, which you desperately need.

second. MP FB suits are good, fire warriors are good, and your crisis hq is questionable, but acceptable. however, you dont bring any of them in any significant numbers, meaning your firepower is being completely outstripped by the some of the most basic ASSAULT armies, and thats not even taking into account that 3 of your 4 fire warrior teams are 6 man squads packed in devilfish...

Your only truly killy unit in this list is your broadsides, decked out with plasmas and multitrackers, thanks to all their weapons being twin linked however, they barely even need the markerlights save to strip the occasional covered squad, which can be mitigated 50% of the time by putting them on the highest hill in your deployment zone.

Whats this all mean? you've got a grand maximum total of 18 ap1-2 shots, 25 5/5 shots, and 8 7/4 missiles... and 24 markerlights a turn assuming all your weapons shoot their max number of shots... taking it in terms of models, you're basically running 2 broadside teams, 1 fire warrior squad, and a crisis hq against the enemy army. The rest is blinking lights at them or hiding as you stated.

...

oh and your 24 markerlights that will give you 12 consistent marks a turn... that you will almost never completely use, save for the first turn or 2 of seekers...

Tough love aside, I think there should be some careful reconsideration paid to the overall balance of your list. If you want to keep the 3 potential targets an option for your markerlight distribution, consider cutting them back to 6-5 per team... your railguns are also very competent at blowing up vehicles without having to rely on deep striking support, so while 1 is ok as extra insurance, 3 independent models dedicated to this is overkill as well. your fish have no need for multitrackers and targetting arrays since they're not meant for offensive damage and only have a burst cannon anyways. for the points you put into those upgrades on your devilfish, you can just get more fire warriors. your damage will come out higher in the end anyways.

I don't particularly agree with your broadside loadout on the basis of primary-secondary purpose views. Its a personal preference thing, but what i recommend is that you definitely invest in atleast 1 shield drone for them. they greatly increase your units survivability, especially broadsides since they confer the strongest bonuses any unit in our codex can provide to shield drones.

[Antisocialnerd]

Originally Posted by newdigitalblue

I like me some broadsides... but Shield Drones man Shield drones!!!! Also I like SMS better then plasma Rifles. LOS can be a big thing.

Honestly i really don't need shields at Irish tournaments i discovered there really is a lot of cover i've heard Americans use very little but finding cover for the broadsides will not be difficult.

Originally Posted by newdigitalblue

I like me some broadsides... but Shield Drones man Shield drones!!!! Also I like SMS better then plasma Rifles. LOS can be a big thing.

Why your just making the broadsides suckier at two things i think taking out 6 marines from a pop vehicle or a terminator squad or Tyranid monstrous creature straight up is a lot better than fluting about with 5 5 shots which i already have piles of.

Originally Posted by newdigitalblue

This is really intersting idea and I like it however I think twinlinking FB would be a better option then FB MP. Especially if they are for tank hunting. I would suggest doing each of them on the pos relay because if you bring one in that's all you get and with 2-3 pathfinder devilfih you will most likely land where you want to. However once they land they will be mince meat so I would look into making them as cheap as can be because more then likely they will be shot to pieces after landing so they will need one good shot... on that note I would think about twinlink targeting array because you really need that one shot to hit.
.

I hear what your saying but i find it strange on one hand i have people saying i have too many markerlights i'll never use them all and on the other i have people saying twin link those weapons get targeting arrays i have it missile pod fusion and i intend on using marker to make it BS5 and possibly negate cover i WILL hit with those weapons provided i land safely and in range.

i also totally agree they will be creamed afterward thats why i've made them as cheap but effective as possible targeting arrays are expensive on a suit your suggestions would make them more expensive and less effective if you take the rest of the army into account

i'm also quite happy to trade a suit for a kitted out predator or leman russ tank.

Originally Posted by newdigitalblue

Hammerheads are great however you have a lot of Str 10 weapons with 2 full teams of broadsides I would actually look into taking a ion Head. The only thing it really doesn't work well agienst is terminators and the only thing you really lose is the pie however from what you have been talking about you aren't looking at templates as a nessessity. Plus it's cheap.

the reason i would want to take the hammerhead would be purely for anti horde and to make the list a bit more balanced.I can;t really see what an ionhead would bring to this list other than another fast moving hard to destroy target for my enemies.

Originally Posted by tehlegend

ok, looking at your list, i can see a few things wrong. first and foremost is the third pathfinder squad. I'd let you slide in 2250 or higher, and 2000 if you give me a really good reason, but theres almost no way to justify taking so many markerlights. If you were running a seeker alpha strike with 2 skyrays, this would most likely still be excessive. they're eating up points for another half a squad of ANYTHING that can shoot, which you desperately need.
.

I think i have already justified the third pathfinder team earlier also i don;t see how thier eating up points thier only two points more expensive than a firewarrior with a basic carbine and since they have scout you could justify that cost bonus = markerlights you also seem to think pathfinders can't shoot for some reason they do have guns and can shoot as well as any firewarrior.

What would you suggest i get in place of them that would be better i kinda need those scoring transports so i can't really lose that so that means i still need that 6 man squad so all we're saving is 96 points so i might be able to get a 9 man firewarrior team which is much the same thing without the markers or maybe two cheap suits like deathrains which wouldn't really add more much more firepower compared to eight 5/5 shots.

you need to back up what you say a bit more for me to take it seriously it's easy to say get rid of something but what do i replace it with and how is it going to be better.

Originally Posted by tehlegend

second. MP FB suits are good, fire warriors are good, and your crisis hq is questionable, but acceptable. however, you dont bring any of them in any significant numbers, meaning your firepower is being completely outstripped by the some of the most basic ASSAULT armies, and thats not even taking into account that 3 of your 4 fire warrior teams are 6 man squads packed in devilfish...

Your only truly killy unit in this list is your broadsides, decked out with plasmas and multitrackers, thanks to all their weapons being twin linked however, they barely even need the markerlights save to strip the occasional covered squad, which can be mitigated 50% of the time by putting them on the highest hill in your deployment zone.

Whats this all mean? you've got a grand maximum total of 18 ap1-2 shots, 25 5/5 shots, and 8 7/4 missiles... and 24 markerlights a turn assuming all your weapons shoot their max number of shots... taking it in terms of models, you're basically running 2 broadside teams, 1 fire warrior squad, and a crisis hq against the enemy army. The rest is blinking lights at them or hiding as you stated.

oh and your 24 markerlights that will give you 12 consistent marks a turn... that you will almost never completely use, save for the first turn or 2 of seekers...

Some of your points here are good but your maths are wrong i have the potential of 62 5/5 shots 30 of which have pinning in case your wondering where the 6 extra are coming their the gun drones which will be firing even if my devilfish moved 12" because according to TAU FAQ drones can shoot off a vehicle if the vehicle can shoot any weapons....again i can only assume that you literally think pathfinders can't shoot for some reason in my mind against horde it's a 24 man slightly forward gunline or depending on the horde such as tryanina last desperate defensive line hoping to pin the horde after they used the seekers to take out the monstrous creatures.

i would also like to contest that i wouldn't use 12 markers a turn on turn one most SM tank/transports will be behind cover or the landraider assuming i go first so theres 9 slots of cover i need to negate if i'm to shoot properly +1 BS to each of my broadside 2 man shooters since i can split fire and there used.

alternatively if they go first they move out their tanks/transports and pop smoke same thing or they'll do this on turn two with surviving tanks/transports.

Turn 3 if i went first turn 2 if they went first the space marines are now on my door threatening/killing at least my pathfinders so i start popping of those seekers to take them out i'm also boosting BS for my firewarrriors at this stage thats 10 markers right there couple of bs boosts to my broadsides and their used again.

Turn 4 if i went first turn 3 if he did i'm beginning to lose my pathfinders but i still need to boost BS for my firewarriors and at this stage i'm probably shooting with my pathfinders too so more BS boosts needed my broadsides would also like a 1 bs boost but i'm running out because my pathfinders are dead/engaged/shooting.

and all that is without mentioning the suits i'm dropping also wanting support.

Turn 5 if i went first i have won or i am dead. Turn 4 if he went first i have won or i am dead or about to lose.

also a reason i think i'll need those markers is because i had two squads last time and was always short markers this could also be due to the Irish tournaments having a lot more cover than you may have i'd much rather have them and not need them than need them and not have them after all

either way we're going to find out as i'm not losing those guys their there to stay unless someone can give me a convincing argument the real uncertainty for me is what to do with the last 200 points or so.

[Antisocialnerd]

Originally Posted by tehlegend

Tough love aside, I think there should be some careful reconsideration paid to the overall balance of your list. If you want to keep the 3 potential targets an option for your markerlight distribution, consider cutting them back to 6-5 per team... your railguns are also very competent at blowing up vehicles without having to rely on deep striking support, so while 1 is ok as extra insurance, 3 independent models dedicated to this is overkill as well. your fish have no need for multitrackers and targetting arrays since they're not meant for offensive damage and only have a burst cannon anyways. for the points you put into those upgrades on your devilfish, you can just get more fire warriors. your damage will come out higher in the end anyways.
.

Yeah i kinda agree that three tank hunting suits is a bit overkill but honestly with the last 200 or so points i have i'm not sure where to put them they are mainly to give me a bit of flexibility and serve as a distraction currently i'm leaning more towards the Hammerhead at the moment since with two seekers and it's rail gun it'll still add to my tank busting but will be a huge help to my anti horde side of the equation.

i disagree about the devilfish five 5/5 shots two of which have pinning times 3 is 15 shots on a pretty tough to kill unit i think they will serve well offensively blocking tank shocking and engaging hordes in particular especially if i can provoke a mob of orks or tyranids into assaulting it.

wounding a mob of models on the 4+ if they only have 5+ or so saves can be pretty devastating.it'll also make them much more effective at holding their objectives and point wise it's pretty efficient and worth it 15 points for 3 BS4 5/5 shots that can move 12" and 2 drones shooting as well is pretty cost effective where on the other hand 85 points for a dumb fish that does little to nothing is a huge waste of points.

so in my opinion investing that little bit of extra points makes the whole thing a lot better value.

and in the end it's 45 points total enough for four firewarriors so to say i'd get as much bang out of those points in four and half firewarriors as i would out of 3 BS4 burst cannons and 6 gun drones isn't realistic.

shiz double post forgot to edit again and i was going so well.

P.S what would people think of me putting in sniper teams into this list instead of the crisis suits.

This way i could use the pathfinders to link with them to guarantee pins by reducing morale i could use their spotters to fire off missiles individually making them more efficient and if needed i could use them to give the broadsides cover with their stealth fields for which i got an official ruling last tournie saying i could do that and i would have more long range firepower.

[Antisocialnerd]

Ok for anyone interested i've finalized the List taking into account some input from everyone this is the final list which i submitted to the tournament organizers today

1750 Pts - Tau Empire Roster

Total Roster Cost: 1749

HQ: Commander Shas'el (1#, 89 pts)
1 Commander Shas'el, 89 pts = (base cost 50 + Fusion Blaster 12 + Hard-wired Multi-tracker 5 + Missile Pod 12 + Targeting Array 10)

HQ: Commander Shas'el (1#, 89 pts)
1 Commander Shas'el, 89 pts = (base cost 50 + Fusion Blaster 12 + Hard-wired Multi-tracker 5 + Missile Pod 12 + Targeting Array 10)

Troops: Fire Warrior (6#, 60 pts)
6 Fire Warrior, 60 pts = 6 * 10

Troops: Fire Warrior (6#, 60 pts)
6 Fire Warrior, 60 pts = 6 * 10

Troops: Fire Warrior (6#, 60 pts)
6 Fire Warrior, 60 pts = 6 * 10

Fast Attack: Pathfinder (11#, 226 pts)
8 Pathfinder, 96 pts = 8 * 12
1 Devilfish, 130 pts = (base cost 80 + Disruption Pod 5 + Flechette Discharger 10 + Multi-Tracker 10 + Seeker Missile x2 20) + Targeting Array 5

Fast Attack: Pathfinder (11#, 226 pts)
8 Pathfinder, 96 pts = 8 * 12
1 Devilfish, 130 pts = (base cost 80 + Disruption Pod 5 + Flechette Discharger 10 + Multi-Tracker 10 + Seeker Missile x2 20) + Targeting Array 5

Fast Attack: Pathfinder (10#, 214 pts)
7 Pathfinder, 84 pts = 7 * 12
1 Devilfish, 130 pts = (base cost 80 + Disruption Pod 5 + Flechette Discharger 10 + Multi-Tracker 10 + Seeker Missile x2 20) + Targeting Array 5

Heavy Support: Hammerhead Gunship (1#, 195 pts)
1 Hammerhead Gunship, 195 pts = (base cost 90 + Railgun 50 + Two Burst Cannons 10 + Disruption Pod 5 + Flechette Discharger 10 + Multi-Tracker 10 + Seeker Missile x2 20)

Heavy Support: Broadside Battlesuit (3#, 265 pts)
1 Broadside Battlesuit, 95 pts = (base cost 70 + Hard-wired Target Lock 5 + Twin Linked Plasma Rifle 10 + Multi-Tracker 5 + Team Leader 5)
1 Broadside Battlesuit, 85 pts = (base cost 70 + Twin Linked Plasma Rifle 10 + Multi-Tracker 5)
1 Broadside Battlesuit, 85 pts = (base cost 70 + Twin Linked Plasma Rifle 10 + Multi-Tracker 5)

Heavy Support: Broadside Battlesuit (3#, 265 pts)
1 Broadside Battlesuit, 95 pts = (base cost 70 + Hard-wired Target Lock 5 + Twin Linked Plasma Rifle 10 + Multi-Tracker 5 + Team Leader 5)
1 Broadside Battlesuit, 85 pts = (base cost 70 + Twin Linked Plasma Rifle 10 + Multi-Tracker 5)
1 Broadside Battlesuit, 85 pts = (base cost 70 + Twin Linked Plasma Rifle 10 + Multi-Tracker 5)

[tehlegend]

Originally Posted by antisocialnerd

I think i have already justified the third pathfinder team earlier also i don;t see how thier eating up points thier only two points more expensive than a firewarrior with a basic carbine and since they have scout you could justify that cost bonus = markerlights you also seem to think pathfinders can't shoot for some reason they do have guns and can shoot as well as any firewarrior.

What would you suggest i get in place of them that would be better i kinda need those scoring transports so i can't really lose that so that means i still need that 6 man squad so all we're saving is 96 points so i might be able to get a 9 man firewarrior team which is much the same thing without the markers or maybe two cheap suits like deathrains which wouldn't really add more much more firepower compared to eight 5/5 shots.

you need to back up what you say a bit more for me to take it seriously it's easy to say get rid of something but what do i replace it with and how is it going to be better.

Apologies for not going more indepth on my explanations. I'm of the mindset that the rifle is a far superior weapon (in general, not in all respects) to the carbine thanks to its additional shot at the 12" mark. Since half the units we'll face are immune to pinning thanks to fearless or whatnot, I make it a habit to not rely on it. Having said that, I view fire warriors as far superior to the path finders because of this, being more than twice as effective at delivering pure volume of wounds, for a cheaper cost. You could argue that the scout move is worth the points, but for a rifle team, it can more often line up on the deployment line and tag enemies clear on the other deployment zone just with the range of their guns. That scout movement only grants you the last few inches of deployment zone you couldn't already reach, which in most cases is negligible already since the opponent is most likely going to approach you in some fashion (the exception being parking lot or tailgate party IG lists).

When I really look at what the carbine offers in place of the rifle, i can't get behind it. The rifle is rapid fire while the carbine is assault 1. rifle is 30" range while the carbine is 18. The effects of pinning are not guaranteed, and it requires multiple markerlights to make effective. In addition, the target is getting an additional cover save for all fire directed at it after the pinning. and THEN theres a multitude of units that are fearless or stubborn meaning pinning is useless or can't be buffed at all by the markerlight. When I look at all of those what-if's compared to the simple and straight forward nature of the range and additional close range shot of the rifle, I can't really call it a contest. All of those what-if's for a squad to possibly stay down so you can clean it up later, or simply more shots to just kill more of them now?

Throw in the fact that your available markerlights can only target 3 potential groups, and that you're dedicating one of them to carbine fire for it to work in your scout move example. and you only have 1 squad dedicating itself to supporting the rest of your army in taking down something.

Originally Posted by antisocialnerd

Some of your points here are good but your maths are wrong i have the potential of 62 5/5 shots 30 of which have pinning in case your wondering where the 6 extra are coming their the gun drones which will be firing even if my devilfish moved 12" because according to TAU FAQ drones can shoot off a vehicle if the vehicle can shoot any weapons....again i can only assume that you literally think pathfinders can't shoot for some reason in my mind against horde it's a 24 man slightly forward gunline or depending on the horde such as tryanina last desperate defensive line hoping to pin the horde after they used the seekers to take out the monstrous creatures.

Originally Posted by antisocialnerd

i disagree about the devilfish five 5/5 shots two of which have pinning times 3 is 15 shots on a pretty tough to kill unit i think they will serve well offensively blocking tank shocking and engaging hordes in particular especially if i can provoke a mob of orks or tyranids into assaulting it.

wounding a mob of models on the 4+ if they only have 5+ or so saves can be pretty devastating.it'll also make them much more effective at holding their objectives and point wise it's pretty efficient and worth it 15 points for 3 BS4 5/5 shots that can move 12" and 2 drones shooting as well is pretty cost effective where on the other hand 85 points for a dumb fish that does little to nothing is a huge waste of points.

so in my opinion investing that little bit of extra points makes the whole thing a lot better value.

and in the end it's 45 points total enough for four firewarriors so to say i'd get as much bang out of those points in four and half firewarriors as i would out of 3 BS4 burst cannons and 6 gun drones isn't realistic.

First off, I was assuming your pathfinders are maximizing their use of markerlights at all times, which can clearly be incorrect as i have never seen you play before, and thus, cannot say with certainty what you are planning to use your stuff for, and in what manner. I will say though that getting a load of 5/5 shots into 1 squad of fire warriors is much different and much more effective than relying on a load of separate random groupings of 5/5 shots on random gun drones, devilfish, etc. 1 group firing in unison can all benefit from the same markerlights, override wound allocation abuse, and force overwhelming deaths through sheer weight of numbers, while random groupings will more likely be firing at base BS, and be allocated to the least important or most survivable element of the target group repeatedly. In addition, your gun drones on the devilfish are not benefitting from the ships targetting array, and markerlights you allocate do not benefit the devilfish and gundrones at the same time, you must allocate to them both separately.

Second, I practically wrote the book on devilfish tactica in my area, and Devilfish Walling is one procedure that i not only use extensively, but that i advocate heavily here on the forums. Having said that, in my experience, the less points you dedicate to each piece of it, the better off you are. An opponent that sees a wall of (in his opinion) trashy 85 pt walls in his way is more likely to risk firing through to the more valuable squads behind it rather than dedicating the squad to destroying it. Your strategy however, loads it up to 110 points, plus seeker missiles. This makes it more acceptable to destroy, as it now represents a more significant investment and offensive component to your list. While the 15 points doesn't seem like much on paper, the fact that the opponent is blocked by a vehicle over 100 points with 2 antitank shots on it is going to carry more weight than an 85 point anti-grav box. This Tactica generally seems to work along the same principles of the kroot wall. An opponent doesn't want to bother with the little 10 man kroot squads in front of the crisis team but he'll be more than willing to dedicate resources into clearing out a 30 man kroot squad with hounds. Flechettes are a wonderful upgrade and I love them alot, but I only ever stick them on piranha squadrons thanks to the squadron rule stacking the flechettes multiple times over in the same assault phase. On a devilfish wall, against an opponent that knows what they do, it gives more incentive for him to shoot the devilfish and not assault it, which you don't want to happen. Those devilfish that move over 6" are only going to be hit on 6's, which is where you have the best chance of survival, even against thunderhammers or chainfists or whatever. If you're giving him more reason to shoot at your devilfish, you're just increasing the load that the disruption pod will have to deal with, and a 4+ save is far easier to get past than that 6+ roll to hit.

On a piranha squadron, the threat of a flechette is multiplied in proportion to however many piranhas are present. Against an assault based army that has very few shooting elements to work with, it is much easier to roadblock with this unit and target the anti-armor, which is where its true strength lies, any models that attempt to assault it is just icing on the cake.

i would also like to contest that i wouldn't use 12 markers a turn on turn one most SM tank/transports will be behind cover or the landraider assuming i go first so theres 9 slots of cover i need to negate if i'm to shoot properly +1 BS to each of my broadside 2 man shooters since i can split fire and there used.

alternatively if they go first they move out their tanks/transports and pop smoke same thing or they'll do this on turn two with surviving tanks/transports.

if you're planning on splitting fire with each of your individual broadsides (which you're not since i see a lack of a second target lock), that would mean targetting 9 different units with markerlights, which you clearly cannot do. you only have 3 groups of path finders to work with, so you can only target 3 different vehicles.

Against a heavily mech'd list, it is probably most useful to charge your 'fish up into the vehicles face to block its movement and take your chances against the cover saves, negating cover save against 1-2 key vehicles that aren't blocked. In this way, you negate the movement of the transports for 1 turn, open up a transport and spill its contents out for your enjoyment.

Against other lists, relegate devilfish walls to protect your units as normal.

Turn 3 if i went first turn 2 if they went first the space marines are now on my door threatening/killing at least my pathfinders so i start popping of those seekers to take them out i'm also boosting BS for my firewarrriors at this stage thats 10 markers right there couple of bs boosts to my broadsides and their used again.

Turn 4 if i went first turn 3 if he did i'm beginning to lose my pathfinders but i still need to boost BS for my firewarriors and at this stage I'm probably shooting with my pathfinders too so more BS boosts needed my broadsides would also like a 1 bs boost but i'm running out because my pathfinders are dead/engaged/shooting.

and all that is without mentioning the suits i'm dropping also wanting support.

Turn 5 if i went first i have won or i am dead. Turn 4 if he went first i have won or i am dead or about to lose.

also a reason i think i'll need those markers is because i had two squads last time and was always short markers this could also be due to the Irish tournaments having a lot more cover than you may have i'd much rather have them and not need them than need them and not have them after all

either way we're going to find out as i'm not losing those guys their there to stay unless someone can give me a convincing argument the real uncertainty for me is what to do with the last 200 points or so.

All this can be avoided by simply practicing the above suggestion. Having extra devilfish dud's rolling around impeding movement is already buying you multiple turns of shooting so your broadsides are popping that many more vehicles with ease. If you, like me, have 4-5 such vehicles rolling around, you are easily walling off a third of the board (half if you do it right, since you can space the fish out just enough to prevent his transport moving through, and you can string them corner to corner, creating a line easily in excess of 24"), a nightmare of a scenario for your opponent if the guy tried a straight down approach along the side of the map. If he did as you predicted and popped smokes on all his vehicles first turn, your blocking gives him no extra benefit since he already has his cover save.