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It is possible to make an army that can deal with the new Blood Angeles and Orks
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Old 24 Apr 2010, 10:10   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
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Default It is possible to make an army that can deal with the new Blood Angeles and Orks

It is possible to make an army that can deal with the new Blood Angeles and Orks on a random mission?

I am having a bit of a problem in my gaming group, they like us to make up the army list before the night we play. Then later on the night I either randomly face Blood Angles or Orks at 1500points. Or somtimes both like last night it was my 2k Tau V 1k orks with 1k BA's. Very rarely we do 2 v2 at 1500 points each. But its mainly the Orks and BA's I find hard.

Is it possible to make a balanced list that can fight both Blood Angeles and Orks? Any tips? To further complicate matters the Ork player doesn't like it when I take few troops as he sees it as power gaming. So I try and take 30 to 40% troops which isn't working for me. It's not a rule I have to take that many troops and when ever I do I lose the game.

This was my army list (http://uploading.com/files/8521ef45/Unknown.htm/) . The idea was to use marker lights to get rid of cover saves, make things hit better and for seekers. Hitting a seeker on a deep striked dread in rear amour was fun. My theory being 7 seekers is cheaper than a hammerhead which can only shoot 7 times max if the game goes on for 7 turns with the railgun.

This is my next experimental army build (http://uploading.com/files/b56173cm/new.htm/) although it's not finished and has gone over the points limit. I am only allowed stuff in the codex and we are not allowed any points over the limit. Any tips on a 1500 and 2000 point army to deal with a random mission, Orks and Blood Angels?
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Old 24 Apr 2010, 12:55   #2 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: It is possible to make an army that can deal with the new Blood Angeles and Orks

First it will be very tough to do so since you face 2 army which, although assaulty, uses differnet configuration to achive this goal.

But before starting I have 2 things to say:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pottsey
Is it possible to make a balanced list that can fight both Blood Angeles and Orks? Any tips? To further complicate matters the Ork player doesn't like it when I take few troops as he sees it as power gaming. So I try and take 30 to 40% troops which isn't working for me. It's not a rule I have to take that many troops and when ever I do I lose the game.
First screw him, If you want to use 2 minimal troop choice you can and if he's not happy with that it's his problem. Tau is a specialist army and we need to choose how we spend our point carefully and if this means putting 2 sqaud of 6 fire waririor only then so be it.

Second, I can't access the link. Please could you repost the list here.


Now to the question at hand:
Marines:
Marines are a tough army with generally good stats, excellent armour value high toughness but low model count. And BA are more annoying with the DSing Land Raider and Dreads as troop choice.

The 2 approch that can be taken here is:
1) AP1 and AP2 spam: In other word, put in a lot of broadsides, pathfinder with rail rifle, Helios suits (FB and PR). The Idea here is to make every shot count as a kill as much as possible.
2) Fire supression: The idea here is to saturate them with shots and pieplate furcing as many saves as possible thus making them fail more. Firestorm and deathrain suit, CIB, AFP, hammerhead for the pieplate, markerlight galore and a lot of fire warriors and kroot are a good approch here.

Ork:
It depends on the configuration, but often they use a horde approch or a Fast mech approch to get down your throat and force you into CC. In this case Fire suppression tactic as well as high mobility is your friend. Making them take a lot of save and making them run after yuo aruond the table is one of your best bet...short of using a Ninja List, but that is risky.


So to face them I would consider this for a list:
your HQ shoud have a CIB (and if possible a AFP too) combined with a plasam rifle and maybe some Helios Bodyguard.

Your Elite should be specilised. 1 full Helios team and 1 full Firestorm team is a good way to go. It gives you a descent Anti-MEQ and 1 descent Anti-horde suit.

Troop 2 or 3 teams of 8 man, preferable with devilfishes (at least 2) for mobility to get them moving about especially considering both enemy can be pretty mobile.

Your Fast is a tough one. Gun drones makes for great speedbump and could be useful as a sacrificial unit, pathfinder is a must in both case. A small 4 man pathfinder team with rail rifle could also be helpful -work well for me.

Heavy is a toss up. Hammerhead with a railgun gives you the pieplate so 2 or 3 of them is a pretty impressive force to reckon with however a broadside team can put more punch in your enemy. A combo of both could be the way to go.
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Old 24 Apr 2010, 16:49   #3 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
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Default Re: It is possible to make an army that can deal with the new Blood Angeles and Orks

The Ork player so far has used two main tactics. The first is to take, I think it was 13 dreads with a mix of Killer Kans and Deff dread. His tactic is to advance the dreads at the front of his army with some big Meks with Kustom Force fields in ork squads right behind so the dreads all get cover saves. The best I ever did against that was lots of markerlights and seeker missiles but I still lost. His other tactic which he used last night was to take lots of open toped vehicles full of orks. I blow up his vehicle on the far size of the battlefield and it used the Ork ramshakle rule? Not sure I spelt that right. The vehicle moved 18 inch towards me and the orks unloaded pretty close. He got lucky and got to choose the direction the vehicle moved. He also took a max sized Looters squad which proved deadly just from the pure amount of shots. I plan to take stealth suits to counter them next game.

The Blood Angel player is even harder to predict as he is still experimenting with the new codex. He tends to take few high power units and loves feel no pain. Last night Terminators and dreads deep striked on my rear to the left. Scout bikes infiltrated and shot me point blank with I think it was melta weapons on turn one. He also had some psi powers that made my troops take a leadership test at -2 and if fail fall back. Snipers that did very little and a Razorback. He didn't seem to like the Terminators last game and I think he will swap back to Death Company. Not sure why he didn't like them my rail guns don't work very well and feel no pain and storm shields thats a 2+save/3+invul and if those two fail the fall back 4+ feel no pain save means high amounts of firewarrior shots didn't work and if he has an Exsanguinator the first failed saved is ignored .

The main problems are Blood Angels from the rear or they advance forward very fast and with Feel no pain fire warriors are next to useless. While Looters get up to 45, S7 shots really restricting my high mobility. Anything in their 48" firing line is dead. All the while all the Ork and BA tanks are classed as fast so they out mobility me. The BA players always seems to take bikes. It was 7 or 8 scout bikes last night.

The army I took was

Commander Shas'o Airbursting Fragmentation Projector; Cyclic Ion Blaster; Hard-wired Blacksun Filter (I need to remove this); Hard-wired Multi-tracker; Iridium Armour; Stimulant Injector; Shield Generator. Basically his job is anti trrops both Terminator's and large mobs even if they have Kustom Force fields. Bit pricy but he works very well for me.

x3 units of Fire Warrior 12 man pulse rifle with Devilfish Smart Missile System, ; Disruption Pod; Flechette Discharger; Landing Gear; Multi-Tracker; Seeker Missile (x2); Targeting Array.
(Flechette Discharger proved great, one tank killed 11 orks assaulting it before one remaining ork blow up the tank)

x2 unit of Pathfinders Markerlight (x5); Pulse Carbine (x5); Rail Rifle and Target Lock (x3)
Devilfish Pod; Flechette Discharger; Landing Gear; Multi-Tracker; Seeker Missile (x2); Targeting Array
(Worked great for the first two turns, took out his bike squad and deep strike dread with seekers, but failed once the Terminator's deep strike in and psi powers made them fall back losing me most of my heavy weapons)

x1 Piranha Light Skimmer); Fusion Blaster (x1); Gun Drones (x2); Disruption Pod (x1); Seeker Missile (x2); Sensor Spines (x1); Targeting Array (x1).
(Was meant to kill the razerback and be a tank hunter but the Ork vehicle I blow up moved 18" towards it on my turn. Then on their turn the orks assault it. Even on 6 to hit and 5 wounds from Flechette Discharger it went down.)

x1 Sky Ray Missile Defence Gunship; Two Networked Markerlights; Smart Missile System; Disruption Pod; Landing Gear; Multi-Tracker; Targeting Array (did zip, the BA scout bikes immobilised it, took out its market lights and smart missiles systems on there turn 1 and I never used its missiles due to missiles on everything else) It might have been useful if the pathfinders could have had more turns shooting market lights.

x2 Broadside Battlesuit squads of 1. Team leader, Twin linked Railgun; Twin Linked Plasma Rifle; Hard-wired Multi-tracker; Targeting Array.
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Old 24 Apr 2010, 17:09   #4 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
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Default Re: It is possible to make an army that can deal with the new Blood Angeles and Orks


I wrote this army list for a rematch before reading your post.

Commander Shas'o
Airbursting Fragmentation Projector; Cyclic Ion Blaster; Hard-wired Multi-tracker; Iridium Armour; Stimulant Injector; Shield Generator.

x3 units of Fire Warrior x6 Devilfish, Disruption Pod; Flechette Discharger; Landing Gear; Multi-Tracker; Seeker Missile (x2); Targeting Array (I don't plan to disembark the firewarriors. just hold objectives)

x2 Pathfinder Devilfish Disruption Pod; Flechette Discharger; Landing Gear; Multi-Tracker; Seeker Missile (x2); Targeting Array, x3 rail rilfe
Piranha Light Skimmer squad of 3: Fusion Blaster ; Gun Drones ; Disruption Pod ; Seeker Missile (x2); Sensor Spines ; Targeting Array, Flechette Discharger, Decoy Launchers.

Not to sure about this next one.
x5 Stealthsuits x4 Burst Cannon; Fusion Blaster (x1); Marker Drone x4; x3 Shield Drone; Drone Controller (x4);
Team Leader Hard-wired Drone Controller; Hard-wired Multi-tracker; Markerlight; Gun Drone; Shield Drone; Targeting Array (x1) Fusion Blaster

I was hoping the Steathsuits could start 18inch away from there deployment zone and deal with the looters. Then use the market lights and Funsion Blasters to tank hunt. Market drones are costly but they let me project seekers missiles any where on the battlefield in turn 1. Or I can deepstrike the lot in and use the Pathfinder Devilfish Marker Beacon.

Any flaws in this army? I am looking into the battlesuit options you gave.
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Old 24 Apr 2010, 17:10   #5 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: It is possible to make an army that can deal with the new Blood Angeles and Orks

I'm sorry but you have a lot of wasted point. Which is probably one of the reason you are having a tough time.

Your HQ. If you want a terminator hunter a Helios would be a better choise since the plasma rifle and fusion blaster completely ignores Feel no pain.

For your Troops. Lose 2 devilfishes You don't need them since your fire wariror should be using your pathfinder's devilfish. I would be incline ot say to drop the seekers too...pointless in my opinion. With those point get yourself some Crisis suits with Fusion/Plasma configuration as we as the TL missile pod configuration.

Your pathfinder: Dont mix rail rifle and pulse carbine. You want all of those markerlight. so an 8 man sqaud should be only markerlight...to improve BS, and reduce cover save. If you want the rail rifle I find that a small team of 4 is more effective and cost effective.

Piranha drop the seeker. The gain they give you is not worth the points.

I would drop the skyray and put hammerhead with railgun, burst cannons, multitracker, disruption pod and targetlock. This will prove more effective long term.

The broadside are ok.

Edit:
Looking at the second list. The stealth suit could be a good way to annoy the Loota, but you must keep them 24" away from your opponent. Jump in to 18", shhot then jump back 24". It's feasable, but not easy. I would say forget the fusion, against loota, you want to put as many shoot in them as possible so 5 burst cannon is better.
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Old 24 Apr 2010, 17:42   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: It is possible to make an army that can deal with the new Blood Angeles and Orks

I find the Blood Angels are not as big a threat as I thought they were going to be. I have more trouble with the Orks, but that is due to the list I typically play against (2 units of 6 Nob Bikers + a Warboss, a unit of Nobs in a Battlewagon w/ Deffrolla, 2 units of 20 boyz, 3 Kans)...

Looking at the Ork list you were fighting, I'd say your opponent is a hypocrite. 13 Dreads/Kans is complete @#$% and a great example of Power Gaming. It's also an illegal list as far as I can tell... 2 Big Meks would let you take 2 Deff Dreads as troops, and you could take 9 Kans as heavies, that's 11 total, and the max as far as I can tell, so he's telling you you can't take stuff to kill him, and yet he's cheating ?? Ouch...

My current list seems to be doing really well... I've played 9 games with it, and tabled my opponent 5 of those games. Of course, I know the tables / terrain that is common where I play, so this list works well to take advantage of that. The list is:
HWDC = Hard Wired Drone Controller
SG = Shield Generator
  • Shas'el: TL Plasma; HWDC; SG
    Bodyguard: TL Plasma; HWDC; SG
    3 Shield Drones
  • Shas'el: Cyclic ion Blaster; Plasma; HWDC; SG
    2 Shield Drones
  • Crisis: Team Leader; Fusion; Plasma; HWDC; Multi-Tracker
    Crisis: Fusion; Plasma; Multi-Tracker
    Crisis: Missile Pod; Plasma; Multi-Tracker
    2 Shield Drones
  • Crisis: Team Leader; Fusion; Plasma; HWDC; Multi-Tracker
    Crisis: Fusion; Plasma; Multi-Tracker
    Crisis: Missile Pod; Plasma; Multi-Tracker
    2 Shield Drones
  • Crisis: Team Leader; Shas'vre; TL Fusion; Iridium; Stim Injector; SG
  • Broadside: Team Leader; TL Plasma; HWDC; HWMT; SG
    Broadside: TL Plasma; Multi-Tracker
    2 Shield Drones
  • Broadside: Team Leader; TL Plasma; HWDC; HWMT; SG
    Broadside: TL Plasma; Multi-Tracker
    2 Shield Drones
  • Broadside: Team Leader; TL Plasma; HWDC; HWMT; SG
    Broadside: TL Plasma; Multi-Tracker
    2 Shield Drones
  • Pathfinders -4
    Devilfish: Disruption Pod
  • Fire Warriors -12
  • Fire Warriors -8
  • Fire Warriors -8

The Single Shas'el joins one unit of Broadsides to make them more survivable. I try and place all the Broadsides in cover, on an upper floor of a ruin if possible (the place I play is usually 60%-70% ruins)... The unit of 12 Fire Warriors drive around in the 'fish. I use the 'fish to help deep strike the units of Crissis suits, though I don't always deep strike all of them. The monat suit has always been a surprise, as my opponents always think it will be an easy kill, and then it just won't die. This list does really well vs. any list that is heavy armor, or heavy in things like terminators. Not so good vs. a hoard army, but it does hold it's own. It fits my play style very well, but others may find it not as efficient...
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Old 24 Apr 2010, 18:43   #7 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
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Default Re: It is possible to make an army that can deal with the new Blood Angeles and Orks

The commander is about the one thing in the army I am sure is right. Not keen on changing him. The problem is I never know what he will face. large groups of Orks, SM scouts rushing or terminators. I used to use plasma but 3 shots from plasma and fusion leaves him wide open to the Orks. On turn 1 last night he dumped a large blaster marker on the very large bike scout squad then did 5 Cyclic Ion Blaster shots. He can also dump that large blast market on Meks with Kustom Force fields. I really like the large blaster marker that ignores cover saves and the 5 shots with AP 1 on a wound of 6, Cyclic Ion Blaster which sometimes ignores feel no pain. That's a ton of hits on squads.

The idea with the Piranha was to flat outs forward ish and seeker missiles in rear amour. In the past my theory was always been a Hammerhead gets a max of 5 to 7 railgun shots but at a cost of 150 and one lucky shot from the enemy that's all gone. But 150 buys you 15 seeker shots and more than 1 shot per turn. Saying that I could have really used the Sub ammo and long range yesterday. Replace the Skyway with Hammerhead and removing seekers and using battlesuits like you suggest I ended up with this. Without seekers should I get rid of the Piranha?

Commander Shas'o
Airbursting Fragmentation Projector; Cyclic Ion Blaster; Bonding Knife; Hard-wired Blacksun Filter; Hard-wired Multi-tracker; Iridium Armour; Stimulant Injector; Crisis Bodyguard; Crisis Bodyguard; Shield Generator
x2 Crisis Bodyguard Hard-wired Target Lock; Twin Linked Missile Pod; Shield Generator

Fire Warrior x6 to use pathinders Devilfish and to stay in tank to hold objectives
Devilfish Marker Beacon; Disruption Pod; Flechette Discharger; Landing Gear; Multi-Tracker; Targeting Array
Fire Warrior x6 to use pathinders Devilfish and to stay in tank to hold objectives
Devilfish Marker Beacon; Disruption Pod; Flechette Discharger; Landing Gear; Multi-Tracker; Targeting Array

Pathfinder x8 Shas'ui; Markerlight (x4); Pulse Carbine (x4); Rail Rifle and Target Lock (x3) (I used a Shas'u for bounding and to better protect against psi powers)
Pathfinder x8 Shas'ui; Markerlight (x4); Pulse Carbine (x4); Rail Rifle and Target Lock (x3) (Shas'u like above)

x6 Fire Warrior with Devilfish
Disruption Pod; Flechette Discharger; Landing Gear; Multi-Tracker; Targeting Array

x1 Piranha Light Skimmer Fusion Blaster (x1); Gun Drones (x2); Decoy Launchers (x1); Disruption Pod (x1); Flechette Discharger (x1); Targeting Array (x1) (Perhaps scarp this and the above Devilfish and get a pathfinder squad with rail rifles?)

x1 Hammerhead Gunship Disruption Pod; Flechette Discharger; Landing Gear; Multi-Tracker; Targeting Array, Blacksun and target lock
x1 Broadside Battlesuit team leader Hard-wired Multi-tracker; Advanced Stabilisation System
x1 Broadside Battlesuit team leader Hard-wired Multi-tracker; Advanced Stabilisation System

x3 Crisis Battlesuit Plasma Rifle; Targeting Array (Team leader with Bonding Knife; Fusion Blaster; Plasma Rifle; Targeting Array)
x3 Crisis Battlesuit Burst Cannon; Missile Pod; Multi-Tracker (Bonding Knife; Hard-wired Multi-tracker; Missile Pod; Targeting Array)

The above leaves me with 48points spare. Perhaps some shield drones?


Some ideas I was thinking about was a 6 max size troop squads all with carbines. All moving forward as fast as possible trying to get pins and just relaying on numbers to survive. With 2 broadsides which with advance stabilisation systems standing in the centre of the squads for a cover save. Then One hammerhead sub ammo to deal with looters.
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Old 24 Apr 2010, 20:17   #8 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: It is possible to make an army that can deal with the new Blood Angeles and Orks

Actually I would keep keep the piranha to use it as you stated and just ba a general nuisance for your opponent.

And yes a couple shild drones could be useful on those Crisis team or for your broadside.

Now a few thing:
Quote:
x3 Crisis Battlesuit Plasma Rifle; Targeting Array (Team leader with Bonding Knife; Fusion Blaster; Plasma Rifle; Targeting Array)
x3 Crisis Battlesuit Burst Cannon; Missile Pod; Multi-Tracker (Bonding Knife; Hard-wired Multi-tracker; Missile Pod; Targeting Array)
First team seems to be missing 1 mandatory hard point weapon/systme.
second team the team leader is missing a weapon/support system.

Quote:
x1 Hammerhead Gunship Disruption Pod; Flechette Discharger; Landing Gear; Multi-Tracker; Targeting Array, Blacksun and target lock
What are the 2 weapon systems you are buying?

Quote:
Some ideas I was thinking about was a 6 max size troop squads all with carbines. All moving forward as fast as possible trying to get pins and just relaying on numbers to survive. With 2 broadsides which with advance stabilisation systems standing in the centre of the squads for a cover save. Then One hammerhead sub ammo to deal with looters
Maybe. It's a risky move that could work, but could also be a royal pain in a Kill point game.
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Old 24 Apr 2010, 21:03   #9 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
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Default Re: It is possible to make an army that can deal with the new Blood Angeles and Orks

I made some typos for some reason I added the missing items into the points but didn't put them in my post.

x2 Crisis Battlesuit; Fusion Blaster; Plasma Rifle; Targeting Array
x1 Team Leader Bonding Knife; Fusion Blaster; Hard-wired Multi-tracker; Plasma Rifle; Targeting Array

x2 Crisis Battlesuit Flamer; Missile Pod; Multi-Tracker
x1 Team leader Flamer; Bonding Knife; Hard-wired Multi-tracker; Missile Pod; Targeting Array

I also added with the spare points 2 shield drones to the commander and 2 Hard-wired Multi-tracker to the bodyguards. But removed the bodyguard target locks and instead put 1 target lock on the commander.
Add 2 seeker missiles on the Piranha. (although temped to get rid of Seekers and put 1 gun drone per broadside team just in case they take a high stg high AP hit)

Gue'vesa'ui Kor'vesa I don't think he was cheating I am most likely remembering how many dreads he had wrong. I bet it was 11 not 13. But yes like your list I prefer Crisis over troops. If he is unhappy I will just say what you lot said. Tau are a specialist army, there is nothing wrong with one Crsis teams being focused on space marines and one Crsis team on Orks with few troops.

Thanks for all the advice from both of you.


EDIT:
" What are the 2 weapon systems you are buying?"
Railgun and 2 burst cannons

EDIT2: If I scrap the 2 shield drones and Piranha I could take 9 Kroot, 6 hounds and 1 shaper with armor upgrades and try the Outflank move. Could be good to contest or capture an objective. Or just to hit looter orks holding back.
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Old 25 Apr 2010, 03:38   #10 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: It is possible to make an army that can deal with the new Blood Angeles and Orks

simple.

lotsa XV8s. lotsa FK elites, with BS4 HQ Helios, all with shield drones because they needa survive.

that way there's enough AP1 and AP2 to handle BA, and enough mobility to keep out of orc CC while you make they all pink misty(or green misty, i duno, orcs are strange).

im just playing at 1000pts, and i squeeze 10 suits in there (3 are DR though). working well so far :P

hope that helps
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