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Old 05 Nov 2005, 09:03   #21 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: im scared

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowDeth
With the fabled Fusion blaster, Shield generator O who is a huge waste of points? And can't reach the land raider on the first turn? You know board math, right? You can cover 18 inches up from your deployment zone, in a straight line with a Crisis suit and fusion blaster. Throwing a strength 8 shot at something that will on all acounts kill you the next turn isn't a bright idea, and if you think you will get within 6 inches of the Tank you are sorely mistaken. That means you ended your last move within 13 inches away.
Actually, no. *we're talking about a helios, not a sunforge. *Actually, we're talking about three of them, two of which have BS4. *And, yes, we're talking about firing up those fusion blasters within 6". *Look, the landraider really has two choices, sit in the back and roast 2 firewarriors per turn, or load up 5-6 marines and try to deliver them to the tau lines. *If he sits in back, the marines will die faster than the tau, so it's simply a matter of hiding everything from the landraider after killing all the infantry. *If he attacks, you don't have to end your "previous turn" within 13" (12, actually, I dunno where you get 13 from) to get within 6". *You need to end your "previous turn" anywhere forward of your firewarriors, within 24" of the landraider, but out of LOS of the landraider. *He'll do the rest by continuing to move towards your lines, ending his move within 12" of you. *You'll have two hits to work with, which will normally lead to one penetrating result, causing the marines to bail out, and the landraider to be unable to shoot back. *Shoot the marines with the firewarriors, if you can. *if you can't, they won't be able to assault the suits anyway.

Here's the important part:
If you somehow fail to get that minimum of one penetrating result, you lose exactly one suit, the elite one. *You use your assault move to get all of your suits on one side of the tank, so he can only see you with one lascannon set, and so the elite suit is closer than the 'els. *If he can move his tank far enough away to turn sideways and get LOS with both (unlikely), then after he's toasted the elite suit, he'll have the option of trying to toast one of the 'els with twinlinked BS2 lascannons...which is less than 50% likely to succeed. *The key is piling the suits as close to the lascannon sponson as possible on the chosen side, reducing the chances of him being able to get both lascannons online.

With 1.87 hits, the chances of not getting a penetrating hit on the landraider are vanishinly small. *We're talking one or two chances, and to fail to penetrate, each one has to roll 5 or less on 2D6. *I'd take 2 chances at a 5 or better total on 2D6 any day! *Shadowdeth, your estimation of the chances of a crisis suit stopping a landraider are needlessly pessimistic, and your claim that if they fail, the lanadraider will kill them all is bogus. *If and only if a) they fail, and b) the landraider is able to get LOS with both lascannon sponsons, then the landraider will kill slightly less than 1.5 suits. *I like those odds.


HOWEVER:

The best bet here, cheesy as it is, is to take two hammerheads (which I hadn't even considered, given how cheesy it is!). *Two hammerheads means a 2/3 chance of getting at least one penetrating result against the landraider, and a 1/9 chance of getting two. *Once the LR is destroyed, the tanks can be extremely good at killing marines, with two rail shots and 12 burst shots between the two of them, making for 2-3 dead marines per turn. *In this case, I would hide the ethereal and the firewarriors behind some LOS-blocking cover, since the criticism regarding 12 firewarriors versus 11 marines is spot-on. *You won't wipe the marines off the board in this scenario, unless the Landraider dies on turn one, but you should be able to get full points for the landraider and half points for each marine squad, winning the game ~450+ points to zero. While this course of action is much cheesier than the helios method, it actually has a lower chance of a 100% enemy casualty rate, but virtually ensures a 0% friendly casualty rate. And if the enemy doesn't bring the landraider after all, he won't have much of anything that can hurt your tanks, meaning tat 2/3 of your points are extremely safe, and the other 1/3 needs to hide in the deepest, darkest hole you can find for them.
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Old 05 Nov 2005, 10:15   #22 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: im scared

ok heres my proposed armylist also we are using a 6x4 table so im in range from the word go
antway heres the list
shas`o
plasma rifle
fusion blaster
multi tracker
108

shas`vre
2 fusion blasters
multi tracker
63

8 fw
80

8 fw
80


railhead
sms
disruption pods
decoy launcher
170

501
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Old 05 Nov 2005, 10:39   #23 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: im scared

Uh..guess again. The only way you can take two multitrackers is if they're twinlinked. You can't take two separate ones, as you intend to here. So, either twinlink them and replace the multitracker with something else, or keep the multi and replace one of the fusion blasters.
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Old 05 Nov 2005, 10:59   #24 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: im scared

Quote:
Originally Posted by kfc-v-lot
railhead
sms
disruption pods
decoy launcher
170
You need the Target Lock (afair), the one that allows you to move 12" and still fire your Rail, otherwise you're not very mobile and to make a real nuisance of yourself, get the one that can split your fire for the Railhead as well, so that you can pop his Land Raider with the big gun while the minor guns are blazing away at his infantry.


-Khelben
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Old 05 Nov 2005, 11:05   #25 (permalink)
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Default Re: im scared

Quote:
Originally Posted by march10k
Uh..guess again. The only way you can take two multitrackers is if they're twinlinked. You can't take two separate ones, as you intend to here. So, either twinlink them and replace the multitracker with something else, or keep the multi and replace one of the fusion blasters.
You mean in this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kfc-v-lot
shas`vre
2 fusion blasters
multi tracker
63
It's technically legal, and is more or less a 'filler' for the 3rd hard point (flamers are often used, they're just 1 point more). However a target lock would probably be more useful, as it will help should you decided to attach the shas'o to another squad. (Or if it's attached to the shas'o)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khelben
Quote:
Originally Posted by kfc-v-lot
railhead
sms
disruption pods
decoy launcher
170
You need the Target Lock (afair), the one that allows you to move 12" and still fire your Rail, otherwise you're not very mobile and to make a real nuisance of yourself, get the one that can split your fire for the Railhead as well, so that you can pop his Land Raider with the big gun while the minor guns are blazing away at his infantry.


-Khelben
Yes. Target lock and Multi-tracker are must haves (well, target lock if you can spare the points). Take them instead of the disruption pods.


As for that list, A shas'o is a bit too much in a 500 point game, I would go for a cheaper shas'el and use the left over points elsewhere (HH upgrades, more FW). Oh, and I would personally take an ionhead instead.
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Old 05 Nov 2005, 11:08   #26 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: im scared

Actually, replacing the Target Lock with a Disruption Pod might be a good idea. Thus you can easily stay out of range of the Land Raider (forcing it to either hide, move forwards or shoot at Fire Warriors), while you can easily pummel it at extreme range. You'd have to be a good judge of ranges, but if you can estimate 41" correctly then you can possibly make your opponant think he'll be in range if he moved forwards 6" and then curse when he finds himself 1" out of range still...heh heh...

Nice thought.

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Old 05 Nov 2005, 11:29   #27 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: im scared

Actually railhead would probably be better. Though - I would say he's bluffing with the land raider. And two broadsides might be a bit better than taking a railhead..
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Old 05 Nov 2005, 11:33   #28 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: im scared

Knowing some players, they don't know how to bluff. If they boast they are bringing some uber unit, they tend to do so.

Of course I pulled the biggest bluff of all once - told my friend I was playing with Imperium Guard and then showed up with a Blood Angels army. He was completely shocked that I managed to paint a whole army without him noticing!

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Old 05 Nov 2005, 11:37   #29 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: im scared

Ok, My version of the proposed list above:

Unnamed500 Pts - Tau Army

1 Commander Shas'el (HQ) @ 85 Pts
Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle; Multi-Tracker

1 Crisis Battlesuit Team (Elites) @ 65 Pts
Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle; Multi-Tracker

9 Fire Warriors (Troops) @ 90 Pts
Pulse Rifle (x9)

9 Fire Warriors (Troops) @ 90 Pts
Pulse Rifle (x9)

1 Broadside Battlesuit Team (Heavy Support) @ 85 Pts
TL Plasma Rifle; TL Railgun; Multi-Tracker

1 Broadside Battlesuit Team (Heavy Support) @ 85 Pts
TL Plasma Rifle; TL Railgun; Multi-Tracker

Models in Army: 22


Total Army Cost: 500

TWO Broadsides go for the Land raider if there is one, otherwise they instakill marines and plasma them if they get too close. The xv8's JSJ and plasma them, and also use their missile pods (though these might not be that effective, though they are ranged and could cater for say.. land speeders etc). The Firewarriors just sit and shoot stuff at range.. and hope they don't get shot.

If he doesn't actually take a land raider, I would say that most of the battlesuit mounted weapons could take out a fair number of marines, and any vehicles that come along that aren't LRs
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Old 05 Nov 2005, 14:43   #30 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: im scared

So far, I've seen 3 methods of killing a Land Raider.

1. High Volume of Railguns (3 Broadsides)
2. Close-Range Melta (Helios Suits)
3. Mobile Railguns (Hammerheads)

Going back to the list I proposed before...

- Shas'el w/ Helios (Fusion Blaster, Plasma Rifle, Multi-Tracker)
- Shas'el w/ Helios (Fusion Blaster, Plasma Rifle, Multi-Tracker)
- 8 FW
- 8 FW
- Hammerhead w/ Railgun, Burst Cannons, Target Lock, Decoy Launchers, Multi-Tracker or Disruption Pod

Rather than stick to one strategy, I'd combine strategies. Taht way if your Helios suits are killed you have the Hammerhead to back up and if the Hammerhead is lost, you have the Helios to back up.

As said before by march10k, there are two strategies he will use.

1. Sit Back and Shoot: He will have his Land Raider sitting at the back trying to blow away your FW and Hammerhead, but not the Helios if you use good use of LOS. Against this, the Helios are only truely effective on terrain-filled boards so they can stay out of LOS and get closer up. You have to remember that the Lascannon has a range of 48'', inferior to the Railgun's 72''. If he sits back, stay out of range and bombard his tank with your Railgun while your Helios use their marine-killing weapons and your FW kill off their troops as well. If you play your cards right, their only unit left will be the Land Raider by turn 4 if the Railgun doesn't destroy the Land Raider. This is an instance where the Multi-Tracker would be less useful and the Disruption Pod becomes a gem, lessening the Lascannon's range to 42''. That way if they move at all to get in range, you will have an extra turn to destroy it, and only for 5 points! If his normal marines sit back to shoot as well, I'd scrap the Target Lock and use the 10 points you have left to buy one more Fire Warrior, as he will come in handy.

2. Ride Up and Attack: The HQ and a squad will get in the Land Raider and attempt to assault your static FW and get close up to destroy your Hammerhead at close range. In this instance, the Disruption Pod is near useless and the Multi-Tracker gives you some extra defense (Skimmers Moving Fast and firing your guns is deadly). In this instance, you want to destroy the Land Raider before the Tactical Squad and HQ disembarks, so they will be pinned if you destroy the Land Raider. In this instance, use the Helios to get within 6'' of the tank to fire their Fusion Blasters. With 12'' a turn for movement and him moving toward you 6'' a turn, it will be easy to stay out of LOS and get within range. Once your Railgun and Fusion Blasters take care of the Land Raider, concentrate your Railgun Submunition, Plasma Rifles, Fusion Blasters, and Pulse Rifles toward the pinned marines and HQ. Once they're dead, you'll have won. If not, getting rid of the squad left behind will be as easy as pie.

I wouldn't use Broadsides against a Land Raider, mainly because of lack of mobility, versability, and defense. The Lascannons will kill 2 Broadsides on turn 1 if they can see them. If you have the expensive Shield Generator on them, the Broadsides will fall half of the time, so 1 will die on turn 1. Not good. The defense against low AP weapons the Hammerhead has is invaluable against Lascannons, and especially against 2 mobile Lascannons on a 14 armor vehicle.
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