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predator versus devs for horde control
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Old 17 Sep 2005, 17:12   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default predator versus devs for horde control

Okay, I've been asked to explain why I think a predator is better than devastators for horde control. Even though I think I gave a decent partial explanation before, I'll expand on my opinon here in order to avoid further hijacking the other thread.

As I explained in the other thread, the main reason that I'd take a predator destructor is assault. I'd rather have an autocannon and two heavy bolters and a stormbolter with a good AV than 4 heavy bolters and a bolter with 5 wounds. The reason is that hordes are inevitably going to get into assault range. 5 marines don't have a prayer. On the other hand, very few hordes can so much as scratch the paint on the predator, unless they get around back. Sure, you could argue that a heavy weapon hidden in the horde army's backfield could pop the tank. But that heavy weapon could even more easily kill a marine, and a 5 man squad doesn't have room for casualties.

So say you take a ten man devastator squad so that it has a chance in assault, and more bolters are never a bad thing, right? Well, for those points, I can get two destructors. That's 2 autocannons, 4 heavy bolters and two stormbolters versus 4 heavy bolters and 6 bolters. Now the firepower of the tanks wins, and they're still all but impossible for a horde to take down in assault. best part is, the marines are reduced to S4, with 1 attack each when the horde reaches them, while the tanks just keep on shooting at S4, S5, and S7.

When you compare a small dev squad against a destructor for horde control, the tank survives the human wave much better and isn't that much more vulnerable to high strength weaponry. Its firepower is a tiny bit less, until you get inside 12"...but be honest...a good horde army is going to assault from 18".

When you compare a large dev squad against a pair of destructors, the tanks have significantly more firepower (again outside rapidfire range), but here they become a lot more vulnerable to shooting, while maintaining their far superior survivability against assault.

Of course, what started the whole thing was the indisputible fact that nothing the marines have tops the whirlwind for crowd pleasing horde-stompin!
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Old 17 Sep 2005, 19:17   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: predator versus devs for horde control

I like playing a No trait army thats predominatly shooty with a CC backup. Preds are good but I don't like the fact that they can be destroyed by some good dice rolling. Whatever way you want to look at it, Dveastators are more durable and I personally think that, in a list like mine, you should have some CC backup to deal with CC units that reach you, or when you reach your opponent, its nice to have something mobile that you can rely on (Assault Marines).

I'd take Devs, because I don't get the feeling that they are going to get destroyed in one go..
Although, have been using a 6 man Squad with 2 Plasma Cannons lately and I'm finding them quite useful. I'm revising my list currently and would like to try 2 WW's. Las/plas squads for anti tank etc and 'assault' squads like Assault Marines and 2 Dreads for back up. This is just the way I'm currently thinking of changing my list. As you can see, there are no Tanks per se. I don't really think they fit in a SM army and I don't think that they would be worth taking in most cases.

But like I have pointed out, the crux of this thread to me really depends on the rest of your army, and not whether ot not Devs or a Pred is better for anti Horde. I'd say though that Devsastators are better because they are more durable and can be relied on more than a pred.

What kind list are you running in which you would use Predators? Like WW's I think that 2 would be much more beneficial than 1, although I've never liked SM tanks. unless your playing a sort of 'fluffy' army..
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Old 18 Sep 2005, 01:44   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: predator versus devs for horde control

Ah, a classic argument.

I say Devastators. While on paper a Pred sounds more durable, alas it's not. Most armies tend to go heavy on anti-marine guns (cuase their are so many of us), and so they have a ton of the needed weapons to blow a pred. And I've had a Termaguat destroy my Dreadnought before in one hit, so don't think the enemy won't get lucky. Also don't underestimate covor. A Pred's cover has to be pretty big, and does next to nothing. Meanwhile, the Marines will get a non-negotianable save. They also can move into more terrain, and into smaller sections. And against a horde, none compares (cept the Whirlwind...). While a Destructor has 2 Heavy bolter and an Autocannons, (6 HB shots and 2 Autocannon shots), a 6-man Dev squad has minimium of 12 HB shots, and 2 bolter shots, with a max. of 12 Hb and 4 bolter shots. When it comes to a horde army, it's not the power of the shot, but how many you get in. Also, since most horde armies compramise of weak units or of atleast low-level armor, they prob. won't get an armor save even against a Bolter. Perhaps one may cost 110, and the other 150, but the extra is well worth it. And a ten man squad is 190...you definitly can't get 2 destructors.
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Old 18 Sep 2005, 11:48   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: predator versus devs for horde control

Ok, first of all, you're deliberately ignoring the pintle mount I mentioned, and you're going with 6 marines versus my 5. OF COURSE A 6 MAN DEV SQUAD PUMPS OUT A LOT MORE SHOTS THAN A PRED WITH NO PINTLE!!! So we're talking 14 shots versus 10, not 8. That's 40% more shots, not 75% more, a huge difference.

And when people go got anti-marine guns, they go for low AP, not high strength. AP3 means nothing to a predator. Anything that can kill a predator will kill a marine, but the reverse is far from true. It takes 6 missiles, on average, to penetrate a predator, and penetrated doesn't mean dead. You want to kill it, you use 12 missiles. For lascannons, it's 5 to pen, 9 to kill. Tell me, what will 12 missiles or 9 lascannon shots do to a devastator squad? You're looking at 4-5 casualties, which is just as bad as losing the predator. Sure, you can argue that the first shot fired has the potential to destroy the predator, but I can argue that they might shoot at it the whole game and never hurt it. The dice do what they want. I maintain my position that a small dev squad and a single predator are almost equal in their ability to withstand lascannon and missile fire.

The difference, as stated before, is the ability of the tank to withstand assault, which is the hallmark of most horde armies. Really, the only horde-like army that's particularly dangerous to a predator is guard with massed lascannons and 2-3 conscript platoons...which is really a stand-and-shoot army (standard IG!) with the conscripts thrown in as a gimmick, barely qualifying them as a horde. And a termagaunt destroying my predator is a risk I'll gladly take...that's like a space marine sergeant taking out a bloodthirster...theoretically possible, but unlikely enough to dismiss.

As for the points...I don't have my codex, I was making a scientific wild-assed guess, based on two predator annihilators (which cost more than destructors) with their 6 lascannons costing only a few points more than a 10-man dev squad armed with lascannons...but if heavy bolters are only [Cost of FW - don't post point costs here] points then I guess a 10-man dev squad with heavy bolters will be quite a bit cheaper than 2 destructors...but we're still talking 20 shots versus 18, and 16 versus 12 beyond 24". And now we're talking about 24 missiles or 18 lascannons to take them both out, which will cause 8-10 casualties in the dev squad, so the survivability is pretty equal. When it comes to assault, though (turn 2, anyone?), the preds still get 20 attacks...all of them at least S4, with AP...while the marines with their pitiful 10 attacks, will be allowing armor saves.

In the end, I'll take preds over devs against orks and nids, but with IG it depends on how many lascannons they bring vs. how many conscript squads. Are there any other assaulty horde armies?
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Old 19 Sep 2005, 01:17   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: predator versus devs for horde control

First off, you gave stat info. You just blurted how much a Heavy bolter set costs.

Second you din't say anything bout modility, which means I'm porb right bout that. And that means alot in a battle. When facing an enemy with a mass army, mobility is crucial. Thats a reason some horde armies win: they choke off all areas so you have to fight them in their turf. And preds. can easily be surrounded-a slow vehicle like that ain't get nowhere. Also keep in mind the amount of terrain usually in a game- a Dev. squad can easily readjust to get a better spot, but a Pred has to risk going into the open for a lascannon or such to pop it. And unfortanutly most AP3 weapons or AP2 weapons also have a S of 6. A S 6 weapon can glance (though not very often) a side armor, and can damage rear armor with a 50% chance. And lascannons and missiles make short work of all the armor values on a pred. And any Eldar weapons tooled against marines also have a S* or something to that affect.

Next, realize that statistics may sound good, but they don't happen a whole lot. I've had two Hammerheads with Railguns fail to even Stun my dreadnought, and I've had a lone Termaguant destroy my Dreadnought on it's first hit. Outrageous things happen, and I prefer not to take the chance. Also, if say 6 missiles are being fired at the Pred, any that hit will most likely damage, as it's one target. When 6 missiles come for Marines, they first have to hit. Say 2 hit. then you make wound saves (I know your gonna say "It has no chance, but I've shot missiles at a marine squad (krak) for 4 turns length (2 per turn), and killed nothing). And if their in cover they can get a save (which is where I keep mine most of the time). A Pred has to hit. to damage, and then watches as the dice roll for effect, which will atleast make the Pred unable to shoot. And if it gets stunned (which it prob will) then it cant run either. \

Your also forgetting the Lost and the Damned (basicly evil IG). And what's your point on "are there any other assualty horde armies?"
And unfortanutly when it comes to a assualty horde army, its all about pumping out as much firepower as you can.

And the pintle mounted thing-sorry, I honestly didn't read it. I did not "deliberatly" ignore it.
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Old 19 Sep 2005, 06:20   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: predator versus devs for horde control

Quote:
Originally Posted by SMRCommander
First off, you gave stat info.* You just blurted how much a Heavy bolter set costs.

Second you din't say anything bout modility, which means I'm porb right bout that.* And that means alot in a battle.* When facing an enemy with a mass army, mobility is crucial.* Thats a reason some horde armies win: they choke off all areas so you have to fight them in their turf.* And preds.* can easily be surrounded-a slow vehicle like that ain't get nowhere.

Well, for a start, if a devastator squad moves, it cannot shoot, which is THE major drawback compared to tanks. If a tank moves it can still fire some of its weapons. The predator can also move 12" a turn, if it really needs to, whereas the devastator squad lacks that mobility. Predators can also tank shock. A good way, albeit risky, to get through an enemy squad. Against a squad with no anti tank weapons, this is a blessing.

Ill agree with March10k here. I think that preds. are better horde control, although i do always have an inkling towards tanks being an armoured company commander.

Devastators are good. But they have their weaknesses. Predators do as well, but i find them more useful in the end.
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Old 19 Sep 2005, 07:31   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: predator versus devs for horde control

Actually, it was you who gave away the cost of a heavy bolter...to any idiot who knows what a space marine costs and passed 3rd grade math. Since I'm not on the same continent as my marine codex, I have no way of knowing what at heavy bolter costs, I was merely guessing, based on the numbers you provided, and asking if the math was correct. ;D

And as spiralspanner pointed out, the mobility of a tank is far greater than that of an infantry squad.

The terrain that you say chokes my avenues of approach also creates great fire lanes for me, while blocking LOS from enemy heavy weapons that usually like to hug their board edge to use their long range and stay as far from assault as possible.

You seem to be saying that you prefer devastators because it's possible that a small number of heavy weapon shots will mess up a tank, and possible that massed missile fire won't hurt power armor. I could say that it's possible that 6 lasguns will wipe out your devastators, and possible that three broadsides could shoot at one predator for 6 turns and not kill it. That's fine, though, you go with what's possible (assuming that the enemygeths the best possible rolls against tanks, but the worst possible rolls against infantry : ), I'll go with what's likely.

My point in asking if there are other horde armies was to find out if there are opponents that I'm not taking into consideration. As for the bit about LATD, are they really different enough from IG (in their qualities as a horde) to deserve separate mention? As you yourself said, the only difference is that they serve chaos, not the emperor.


Pointing out the vulnerabilities of predators to eldar weaponry is rather silly in considering their effectiveness against hordes, don't you think? Or are eldar suddenly a horde?

You are right that AP3/AP2 weapons are high strength. But the assaulty portions of horde armies don't generally carry them. They're tucked into the back, where it's pretty easy to keep them from your side armor. And if they're shooting at your rear armor, well, then you've done something retarded to allow them that shot, haven't you?

Missiles make short work of all the armor values on a pred? Are you kidding? If they hit front armor, they have a 1/3 chance of at least glancing, and a 1/6 chance of penetrating. that's a 1/9 chance of a destroyed result for each missile hit. Against side armor, you're talking a 1/2 chance to at least glance, 1/3 to penetrate. That's a 7/36 chance to destroy, or about 2/9. That's all per hit! assuming BS3, you have a 1/18 chance with a missile against front armor, a 1/9 chance against side armor.

With lascannons, it's a bit better. Lascannons against front armor is like missiles against side armor, so a 11% chance per shot. Against side armor, lascannons have a fair chance, a 1/6 chance (again, per hit, not per shot) of a glance, and a 1/2 chance of a penetration, working out to 5/18 chance of destruction. Factor in BS3, and you have 5/36, or 14%.

Oh, and one more thing for assault. If the tank moves 6", it still gets to shoot, and the enemy hits on 4+
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Old 19 Sep 2005, 08:15   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: predator versus devs for horde control

I think that a good mix of the two are the best way to go!

1. IF you are unlucky the predator pops by the first missile shot at it! Devs have at least 5 wounds meaning at least 5 missiles
2. BUT it can aswell survive anything the enemy throws at it, while the devs dies from about 50% of the available weapons
3. Tanks can move and shot devs cant
4. devs can hide easier then the tank!

So both units have thier powers and drawbacks!
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Old 19 Sep 2005, 10:57   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: predator versus devs for horde control

I think a dev squad is better simply because my vehicles get blown up turn 1

I think a poll might be need for this....
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Old 19 Sep 2005, 13:18   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: predator versus devs for horde control

that's just bad luck, king. I have a crusader that almost always dies on turn 1...but none of my other vehicles do, even when there's no crusader around to attrack fire.

A poll sounds great! ;D
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