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the emperors finest with bad equipment?
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Old 14 Sep 2005, 13:59   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
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Default the emperors finest with bad equipment?

iv been looking through the imperial guard codex and iv been wondering: why do imperial guards get a russ tank when space marines just get a stinky predator, why do imperial guards get a chimera and space marines get a crappy armor 11 rhino why do spcae marines get third rate tanks!!!!
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Old 14 Sep 2005, 14:03   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: the emperors finest with bad equipment?

Because Space Marines, despite what most people think, are not an army, they are special operations forces.

Space Marines do not fight in huge pitched battles with millions of people and tanks on each side. They are a surgical strike force that supports the Imperial Guard.

In fact, according to the fluff, we shouldn't even have the option of fielding an army of just space marines at all, because they just don't fight that way. Space Marines should be an Elites choice in an Imperial Guard army.
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Old 14 Sep 2005, 14:37   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: the emperors finest with bad equipment?

Not true. You've clearly never read Ghostmaker, the Marines had all but removed Chaos from the (I think) Monthax before the Guard even arrived. True enough the Guard are the backbone of the Imperium if only in number but that does not mean that Marines are merely a special operations force, or theat they should only be an elite choice in a Guard army, if that was the case then a load of players would never have started the hobby or would have to buy a load of new models. True there are many Marines, even in the Sabbat Worlds crusade in the Gaunt's Ghost novels there are only a couple of legions, and that's a crusade force to take back 100 systems. However the reason for there being so few Marines is that not many are needed, 1 squad would decimate an IG army, (according to fluff), however Guard get good tanks to compensate for their infantry and the armour is better because Guard tanks are designed for head-on rams, where as Marine vehicles are light support.
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Old 14 Sep 2005, 15:44   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: the emperors finest with bad equipment?

I think the reason is that vehicles serve different purposes in a marine army than in a guard army.

Marine tanks are typically configured to kill enemy tanks. Marines have BS4, so twin-linking a lascannon on a predator or even a razorback means you're going to hit eight out of nine shots. Landraiders also have twin-linked lascannons. Dreads can get... twin-linked lascannons. These weapons aren't shooting at infantry, because your marines are really solid at killing infantry.

Guard have a BS 3. In order to get eight hits with a lascannon, the guard have to fire 16. And they're not packing 16 lascannons on their tanks. Guard have weaker troop weapons, and are worse shots. It takes 36 guard-fired lasgun shots to kill as many orks as 15 marine-fired bolter shots. But, with the number of squads, the guard can field all those lascannons that they need in their troop squads.

On the other hand, guard tanks typically fire ordnance or template weapons. These aren't so hot at killing vehicles, with the new scatter rules. but, they're great at killing infantry.

So it's really a difference in what role the vehicles play in each army. In a marine army, the tanks kill other tanks, and the marines kill infantry. In a guard army, the infantry kill tanks, and the tanks kill infantry.

As for the difference between rhinos and chimeras, it's again, a similar issue of what they're designed to do. A chimera provides a decent amount of long-range firepower, and a protective shell for guadsmen to hide in. Maybe they'll get out, but they're about as effective inside, firing the hull lasguns and a heavy weapon out of the hatch. A chimera only advances and disembarks its troops when it's already killed a lot of resistance at range. And, it's armour reflects this. Strong on the front, weak on the sides. It's easier to keep your front to someone at range. It isn't a transport, it's an infantry fighting vehicle.

A rhino is meant to get the emperor's finest up-close and personal with the enemy. It's hatches are on the sides, so the marines can hop out into combat, and while it has weaker front armour, it has better side armour, because it's going to take side-shots because it's designed to run straight at the enemy. It's a pure transport.
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Old 14 Sep 2005, 16:17   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: the emperors finest with bad equipment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scout Sergeant Mkoll
Not true. You've clearly never read Ghostmaker
Of course I haven't read Ghostmaker. I don't consider the horribly written 40K novels to be official fluff. To me, they're just fan-fiction.
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The MTV lie is that people who rebel against tradition are thnking for themselves, while those who follow tradition are just sheep who do not think.
It is, of course, completely untrue. The decision to follow tradition is just as much an exercize of free will as is the decision to depart from it.
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Old 14 Sep 2005, 16:22   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: the emperors finest with bad equipment?

I hope you didn't just say that.

If anything I prefer that 'horribly written fan-fiction' to the 'actual fluff' - it's realistic and gritty and actually gives more insight then 'official' (which, btw, Black Library novels are) writings.

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Old 14 Sep 2005, 17:27   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: the emperors finest with bad equipment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor Thunder
Of course I haven't read Ghostmaker.* I don't consider the horribly written 40K novels to be official fluff.* To me, they're just fan-fiction.
Well, you just forfieted the right to play Guard. :

Dan Abnett's stuff, especially the Gaunt's Ghosts stuff, is considered Canon, so much so that many parts have been integrated into the "Official" fluff in the Codex (such as terms, equipment names, etc).

And I agree that Marines shouldn't normally be an independent army. The reason they didn't stick around in Ghostmaker is because it was a mop-up job. A Marine is too valuable to waste trudging around looking for the last 5% of an enemy army that is long-past beaten.
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Old 14 Sep 2005, 22:57   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: the emperors finest with bad equipment?

Also, the reason the Marines aren't an Elite choice for guard is that they were split form commanding the Guard after the Heresy. They didn't want anyone having so much power again. Marines where split form Guard(not that was a bad thing. Guard have a ahrd time keeping up to marine expectations) navy from the army. Most battleships and cruisers could easily transport all the guard, but the devisions keep the guard in the troop transports so often seen in the books.

As Wargamer said, the books get incorperated into the Fluff. Guants Ghosts aren't the only ones. Isenhorn referances dot the Daemonhunter codex the way Guant's Ghosts ones do the Guard codex.
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Old 14 Sep 2005, 23:07   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: the emperors finest with bad equipment?

Wow. I'm absolutely shaken, I think Gaunt's Ghosts are brilliant, if a little cheesey at times. They offer, to me, a real insight (if you can call it that) into the 40K universe.

SM vehicles are designed around their role as shock assault troops. To the imperium, Marines are like Terminators.. They strom the breach for the rest of the army. In this example, a crusade force. The Marines attack Monthax and do the really dirty work, then go of and do it again elsewhere, all the time the Guard has to clean up and secure the planet as its their duty. This doesn't happen in every case though.

XV15 do you mean fluffwise or gamewise? Because they are relatively incompatible
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Old 15 Sep 2005, 13:05   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: the emperors finest with bad equipment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor Thunder
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scout Sergeant Mkoll
Not true. You've clearly never read Ghostmaker
Of course I haven't read Ghostmaker. I don't consider the horribly written 40K novels to be official fluff. To me, they're just fan-fiction.
Congrats, as Wargamer said, you've just forfeited the right to play Guard. And not all of the "horribly written fan-fiction" is what you think it is. The Gaunt's Ghost novels, and many others besides, do, as Andromidius stated, provide further insight into the 40K universe than the 'official' fluff. This is because they can go into more detail and develop more characters. Also as you read each novel you get to know each of the characters better and symathise/hate them more. Thus becoming more in tune with tactics and the strengths and weaknesses of each unit. Also you may grow to care more about the loss of each guardsman and become more like Gaunt and Oktar as opposed to the scumbag we all hate, 'Lord General' Dravere who could "conquer the Eye of Terror if he had enough bodies to throw in the way." Also as you read each novel the reocurrance of frontline engagements can give you a broader biew of tactics, provided you are intelligent enough to put your pride/arrogance aside, listen to other peoples opinions and consider them. (Not trying to offend anyone, just saying)
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