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-   -   Starting Marines, looking for Advice (http://forums.tauonline.org/space-marines/9436-starting-marines-looking-advice.html)

AuinMyrrath 01 Sep 2005 15:02

Starting Marines, looking for Advice
 
Strange, isn't it - going from Tau to Eldar to the eternally-hated Smurfs?

My goal is to set up a fluff based army without the usuall marine-cheese factor. My questions are these:

1) How do these Traits look?
(Keep in mind, the army is a breakaway Chapter of feirce stealth warriors - they like to get into the thick of things.)

Take the Fight to Them; See, but Don't be Seen
Eye to Eye, We Stand Alone

2) Basic Marine Cheese question:
- How many marines in a Tactical squad should I have for each heavy weapon? (I hate min-maxing with a passion.)

3) Marines in General:
- What kind of weapon loadout would you sugest for Devestators - varied or single-purpose?
- Should Sergeants have armoury gear/Terminator Honours or just be "Vanilla"?
- Why do we never seem to see Terminators with Cyclone Launchers?

The layout I would like for my force is something like this:
Chapter Master, no command squad.
Captian, partying with Assault Squad

Veteran Squad, very individualized with various weapons - perhaps with Razorback?
Terminator Squad (5x) in Land Raider
Dreadnaught (Multi-Melta+CCW?)

Multiple Infiltrating Tactical Squads
Multiple Scout Squads

Land Speeder or Bikes

Devestator Squads, Land Raider, Preadator (Autocannon + Lascannons?)


SMSlayer 01 Sep 2005 20:35

Re: Starting Marines, looking for Advice
 
Tau to Eldar to Smurfs?* Try Necrons to Chaos to Tyranids to Witch Hunters to Smurfs =)

1)* Those traits look fine.* The ability to infiltrate will definately come in handy for you seeing as the goal of your army is to mix it up.* Neither of the drawbacks will really hurt your planned fluff either.

2)* This is really an opinion question.* In general if you dislike min-max'ing I would go with something inbetween around 7-8 Marines per tactical squad.* 8 seems to work the best since you can take 1 heavy and 1 special weapon that gives you 3 'regular' marines per weapon.* Could use 9 too because of the Sergeant.* But I tend to like 8.

3a)* Devastators are all about what you like.* In my opinion I would go dedicated but in reality it doesn't matter as long as you keep the weapon ranges similar.* My bro once took a Devastator squad with Plasma Cannon, Multi-Melta, and LasCannon.* Because of the shorter range of the Multi-melta, it didn't fire once the entire game since he couldn't fire any of them if he moved up.

3b)* You plan on infiltrating your marine squads therefore you are going to be really close to the enemy.* I would definately take term. honours and some wargear.* *Power fists are a -must- as you will be assaulted.* *I'd also recommend plasma pistols, but that goes both ways since if you overheat you run the risk of now losing a points heavy SM.

3c) I've seen plenty of terminators with Cyclone Launchers.* If the guys in your area don't use them, you'll have to ask them.

List)* The general 'layout' of your army looks decent.* Some things to watch for are the veteran squads tend to get very points heavy.* Watch yourself with them, don't overspend on them.* The Razorback is probably not needed.* Infiltration is less points and gets them closer faster.

Are you going to use regular terminators in the Land Raider or assault terminators?* I'd go with assault personally.* The Land Raider is the most likely transport to survive moving up and the ability to hop out and slam your opponents is priceless.* Against assaulty armies they would be extremely useful as you can move them to where they are needed most.

I tend to dislike bike marines.* Not really sure why, so I'd go with Land Speeders.* Hope this helps, sorry I started to ramble on.* Good luck with your army.* Let us know how its going.

Delightfully Emo 01 Sep 2005 22:14

Re: Starting Marines, looking for Advice
 
ME. Smurfs,nids,smurfs,tau,chaos,smurfs,tau,Space wolves and eldar.

With my devastators I would go with 4 plasma cannons. If not 4 Rockets.

I also like going with 10 man squads with my troops.

I went with vanilla cuz the standard box of 10 marines comes with no upgrades for CQC(as far as i know)
If it does then by all means please do.

You don't see many Cyclone missile launchers because they have no advantage over the standard rocket launcher besides the ability to move and shoot. Also because the terminators are one of the few units with SM that can have assault cannons and you wouldn't want to waste one of those precious spots with a missile launcher now would you?

Bikes they get armor saves and because the land speeder is such a low armor that all standard weapons short of the lasgun can kill it.

With the predator i took a predator destructor with side sponson las cannons and smokes.

Have fun with the Mawines!

AuinMyrrath 02 Sep 2005 00:31

Re: Starting Marines, looking for Advice
 
Thanks for the advice, I appreciate it - I'm considering a few fundamental changes to the basic layout, the biggest of which is keeping the Assault Captain but swapping the Chapter Master for a Librarian.

march10k 02 Sep 2005 06:00

Re: Starting Marines, looking for Advice
 
Since you're infiltrating, I'd take 10 man squads. Those bolters are actually useful in range, and the more 15 point meat shields in front of that heavy/special weapon, the better.

Most people who min/max it do so because they feel the extra marines are wasted since the bolters are generally out of range of whatever the heavy weapon is firing at.

Me? I play DA, and I take 3 full squads with plasma all around, including the stubborn, power sword waving maniac of a sergeant. People HATE my tactical squads because they chip away at them through the entire game, and in the end, they're still there, with 2-4 models, giving them the finger...and another dose of plasma goodness.

Not sure how the cyclone thingie works now. Since it is now in addition to regular weapons loadout, can you take 2 assault cannons, and pay to put cyclones on other models in addition? Or does a model with cyclone, stormbolter, and powerfist have to be taken in lieu of an assault cannon toting termie? Also, can a model with a cyclone and another weapon fire both in the same turn? These questions will be important when I finish my Tau and begin to expand my DA in the DW area...

Definitely go with single-purpose devastators. Always take 10 man squads, devastators take lots of casualties!

If you want them to bust tanks, dont take devastators in the first place. 2 predators with maxed out (6, 2 twinlinked) lascannons cost a couple points more than a 10 man devastator squad with 4 lascannons, and can split beween 2 targets. A single predator with maxed out lascannons costs about half as much as a maxed out las-dev squad, is 99% as effective (how often are all 4 weapons in the dev squad going to hit?), and is still cheaper than a min/max las-dev squad. In fact, a maxed out las-pred is cheaper than a min/max dev-missile squad, and definitely more effective against heavy armor and heavy infantry.

If you want them to bust heavy infantry and/or light vehicles, go with plasma cannons.

If you want them to slaughter hordes of light infantry (nids, tau, IG, orks, etc), go with heavy bolters.

Don't take missile launchers or lascannons. These are tank busting weapons, and, as stated above, Space Marine Tanks bust tanks better and cheaper than devastators do.

If you're going to take a landraider, take a crusader and pack it with assault terminators. The biggest advantave of the landraider is that assault ramp. It's the only way in the game to assault out of a moving vehicle, don't waste that! Or take a regular landraider, but load up on those lightning claws (and a thunderhammer)!

Apocalyptic 02 Sep 2005 07:15

Re: Starting Marines, looking for Advice
 
according to the book you cannot take both an ass. cannon and a missile on the same model.

While the assault cannon takes away the storm bolter the cyclone just adds to the weaponry of the terminator, giving him 2 ranged weapons instead of 1.

march10k 02 Sep 2005 11:24

Re: Starting Marines, looking for Advice
 
Okay, cool. I thought so. But is taking the cyclone/SB combo in lieu of an ass cannon or HF? I'd assume so....

AuinMyrrath 02 Sep 2005 11:39

Re: Starting Marines, looking for Advice
 
The entry states that you can take an Assault Cannon/Heavy Flamer or a Cyclone Launcher on top of the Stormbolter.* You can give them a Chainfist still, though, as the rules say "Any model with a Powerfist may upgrade it to a Chainfist", and CML+SB Terminators still have the Powerfist standard.

EDIT: Couple quick additional questions.
1) Can you give any form of Dreadnaught a Plasma Cannon, I've heard it talked about but it's not in the 'Dex.
2) For arming a Librarian, are Force Weapons 1 or 2 handed?

march10k 03 Sep 2005 11:02

Re: Starting Marines, looking for Advice
 
Only dark angels may still take the PC on a dreadnaught.* I do, but only because I can, not because it's better.* The assault cannon and TLLC are both more deadly.

Force weapons are one-handed.* You can take a pistol (on power armor, not terminator armor) and get an extra attack (which I assume was the point of asking.

/edit/ It would be just like GW to give the same "exclusive" goodies to the Sons of the Lion and the Space Pups.

AuinMyrrath 03 Sep 2005 13:54

Re: Starting Marines, looking for Advice
 
Thank you on both counts - I checked at the store and apparently SW venerables can take plasma cannons and a few othre goodies, unless this has changed.

And thanks for the heads up on force weapons, makes my life a bit simpler.


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