Tau Empire Codex 2013 | Army Builder Program
Dark Angels Codex 2013
Chaos Daemons Codex 2013
Chaos Space Marines Codex 2012

Warhammer 40k Forum Tau Online

 

Warhammer 40K Forum

A thought on Tactical Squads....
Reply
Old 26 Oct 2008, 13:51   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ireland
Posts: 698
Default A thought on Tactical Squads....

With the introduction of 5th Edition and the release of the new Marine Dex, much has been said of the shiny new toys the followers of the Codex Astartes are getting. However, the most important changes were largely ignored by the writers of Tacticas on Sternguard/Vanguard/etc; the humble Tactical Squad.

As only Troops canhold objectives, the importance of the Tactical Squad has increased exponentially. Combine this with their reduced cost, and I expect to see more accurate depoctions of a Space Marine Company on the tables of my LGS.

Now, without further ado, let's have a gawk at these lads.

Special Rules

Combat Squads: A brilliant rule for 5th Ed. It helps out in every scenario. I take a small number of squads in my army. Maybe I only have 2-3 troop choices in my list, but if we roll for an Objective mission, my scoring units double, but if Annihalation comes up, I've minimised my KPs. Having a variable number of KPs and Scoring Units is fantastic really.

Combat Tactics: Another lovely rule. If my Assault Squad is charged by a unit of Ork Boyz, I'll probably lose. So I use this rule to attempt to flee. Thanks to ATSKNF, I'll auto rally providing I'm far enough away(reasonably likely). Then, in my turn, I'll charge them!

Conversely, if they charge my Tactical Squad, I'll attempt to flee, then, if succesful, I'll unload on them with my Special/Heavy Weapons! Even if I fail my breakoff test, I'll only take a few No Retreat armour saves, so my Tactical Squad might die, leaving them open to fire anyway.

Those are the two new Special Rules, I won't analyse ATSKNF, since it's been here long enough.

A quick note:

The Tactical Squad is a fantastic Troop. It's tough, like any marine. However, it lacks the sheer force of many of our other units. I'd discourage taking masses(5+) of them in any game below 2000pts as below that, you'll have relatively few Elite units in your army. And Marine Elites have far more punch than the Tactical Squad. Plus, it's boring to play as/against.

Suggested Loadouts:

I am of the opinion that the tactical squad os best bought in ten man squads. The free Special/Heavy weapons are too good to pass up at the given points cost. As such, all loadouts will assume 10 man squads.

The basics: A simple one, ten men, a Missile Launcher and a Flamer. An all rounder. I'd Combat Squad them so the Flamer can move up while the Missile Launcher provides covering fire.

There's the option of switching the ML for a Multi-Melta or Heavy Bolter, but Multi-Meltas are fairly short ranged, so as a Haevy Weapon they can be difficult to use. The Heavy Bolter can be good anti-horde, but with blasts being buffed in 5th Ed, I consider the ML better. Plus the ML's versatility is unparelleled! It can open up on a crowd of Orks one turn with the frag missile, and shoot that Trukk next turn with a Krak Missile!

You might consider throwing a Power Fist Sergeant with the Flamer. Since everyone has a Bolt Pistol, a Tactical Squad is now a fairly potent CC unit - fire with the BPs and the Flamer, then charge in with the Powerfist.

That was my favourite loadout. Cheap as chips and effective to boot.

The anti-Elite: This loadout consists of a Ten Man Squad with Meltagun, Plasma Cannon and PowerFist Sergeant. Not much more expensive than the above entry. But with a different prerogative.

Once again, I'd Combat Squad them into a 5-man unit(Meltagun and Power Fist) and a Plasma Cannon unit. The Plasma Cannon hangs back firing away, and considering how it can kill any infantry unit fairly handily(be it TEQ/MEQ or GEQ), it does its job well. The Melta unit goes tank hunting up close.

I'd recommend taking a Razorback for these boys so they have a wee bit of protection, but if you're tight for points, Running is a good option.

The Las/Plas: A lascannon and a Plasma Gun. Ten man squad, broken down. The Lascannon and the Plasma Gun stay in the same squad while the Sergeant takes 4 Bolter Marines. Consider a Power Fist on the Sergeant to make that 5 man squad a counter charge unit. I'm not too fond of this setup.

A few more notes:

Transports: Very important things. If you suspect you maybe using a CC combat squad, I'd recommend a Razorback. It can protect them decently enough, and can also lay down some advancing fire.

However, I'd stay away from exchanging the weapos on Razorbacks. They're fairly pricey, and can easily double the price of the razorback(which is a bad idea as a Razorback is relatively fragile). Extra Armour and a Storm Bolter are the upgrades of choice for me. The Storm Bolter is defensive, so it fires with the TL Heavy Bolter. Good for softening up a unit that you want to charge in a turn or two. Smoke Launchers should always be deployed if you're out in the open to get that Cover Save.

Rhinos are great. If you buy one, minimise upgrades to Extra Armour and a Storm Bolter. Always move at cruising speed to get where you want faster. Pop smokes if you can't get a cover save otherwise. Once you've dropped your cargo, I'd use it as a wall, isolating enemy squads from each other so your marine aren't ganged up on .

A closing note:

What I've written is not a definitive view of Tactical Squads, just my observations. If you find a loadout that suits you, use it!
__________________
Click on these little dudes to get a slightly bigger little dude!




http://www.travian.co.uk/?uc=uk1
RonanB1011 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26 Oct 2008, 16:45   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Posts: 943
Default Re: A thought on Tactical Squads....

I don't bother with Combat Squads at this point. You lose far too much effectiveness from your squad if half of it is hanging back to babysit a heavy weapon. By the same token, I don't use heavy weapons in my squads either.

My normal loadout is a Flamer and a Powerfist. Granted I play an aggressive assault army, but I find this setup to be ideal. I move them up, and if I'm out of charge range for a turn I can rapid-fire 8 bolters and shoot 2 bolt pistols into a unit. If I'm in charge range I can pop 9 bolt pistols and a flamer into a unit before I charge them, which means I can usually break a unit on the charge. It's a lot easier to break a unit open on the charge with 10 marines than just 5 because your Missile Launcher needs baby-sitting. In my opinion, it's a better idea to not take any heavy weapons on Tactical marines, and instead just put 4 of them in a unit of Devastators so you aren't losing any of your efficiency on the battlefield.

I do agree, tactical squads are an amazing choice. I like to take as many as I can to provide a flexible core to my army. However, heavy weapons in a tactical squad are just a bad idea unless you want to play defensively. To be fair, a boltgun is more effective when you have a unit that's moving around constantly trying to claim objectives than a missile launcher, due simply to the fact that you can't fire that missile launcher on the move.
__________________
The soulless sentience is the enemy of all.

Mournus Skitarii 3rd Legion, the Will of Mourn

Kaffl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26 Oct 2008, 19:37   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ireland
Posts: 698
Default Re: A thought on Tactical Squads....

I'll have to disagree with you on the point about Heavy Weapons. They are a good way to get high strength weaponry into your army without paying the increased price for Devastator Weapons.

Plus,moving Heavy Weapons isn't so much of a dilemma with the new codex since everyone has a Bolt pistol anyway. If you move and can still shoot an enemy with your Bolters, you ca shoot them with your Bolt Pistol.

Lastly, there is an element of defensive lay with objectives. In my area, it's practically a given that players will try to put as many objectives very close or in their deployment zone so Heavy Weapons are useful in guarding objectives.

Kaffl, don't you play Blood Angels? If you do, and haven't had a chance to look at Codex:Marines yet, I suggest you do. Heavy Weapons are far cheaper, and there are other stark differences; an aggressive CC army is viable, but will still lack loads of scoring units(as Assault Squads aren't troops).
__________________
Click on these little dudes to get a slightly bigger little dude!




http://www.travian.co.uk/?uc=uk1
RonanB1011 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26 Oct 2008, 22:50   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Posts: 943
Default Re: A thought on Tactical Squads....

I have read through the codex, and at the moment I outright refuse to play it. It isn't bad enough that the balance of codices was thrown off, but Ward couldn't even keep fluff in line. Ultramarines can be as un-codex as Space Wolfs in the new 'dex, and I refuse to play that way.

Yes, I do play Blood Angels. I play as aggressively as I possibly can given my lack of money to buy Assault Marines (go figure, they're my biggest advantage ans all my Assault Marines models go towards my Death Company). I've tried playing a more reserved play style, breaking into Combat Squads so I can use Heavy Weapons more cheaply, but sacrificing four good bodies to stay behind with my Heavy Weapon usually means I'm undermanned at the front lines. That throws off a lot of the aggressiveness of my army because I can't launch the assaults that I would normally have the strength for.

Now, I should clarify now, I think combat squads are great if you intend to stay in one spot and shoot. When I play, I usually place objectives in the center of the table, or close to my opponent's deployment zone. I do this because, in a good game, that's where I'll be after I've broken my opponent's army. If I played a statinc army, well... I'd honestly re-vamp my Tau for a more static role if I just wanted to stand about and shoot. If that weren't an option though, then I'd say Combat Squads could make life a bit easier.
__________________
The soulless sentience is the enemy of all.

Mournus Skitarii 3rd Legion, the Will of Mourn

Kaffl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28 Oct 2008, 03:07   #5 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,233
Default Re: A thought on Tactical Squads....


During the missions where Troops choices play a pivotal role, do you really want to encourage your opponent to target your combat squads by loading up on powerful upgrades? While a squad of five marines lodged in a piece of terrain out in the middle of nowhere armed with a lascannon might not be worth the effort required by some armies to destroy them, can you really say the same about a powerfist sergeant with a plasma pistol leading combat squad with a plasma gun?

You've got to carefully manage the long term implied threat generated by your tactical squads ability to win the game, by offsetting it against the present threat of more lethal units destroying your opponent's units in the current turn. Because I can guarantee that any tactical squad's continued survival is entirely dependent on how many other more deadly and imminent threats you as their player have managed to bring to bear. Especially in the turns leading up to your attempt to seize the objective with your tactical squads, because that is when they are generating the highest level of implied threat. Now keeping that in mind, would you really want your tactical squads especially when split-up into five man combat squads to generate high levels of both implied and real threat?
__________________
"Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil... prayer, fasting, good works and so on. Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun. Eat leaden death, demon..." ~ Terry Pratchett
ParadoxRifts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28 Oct 2008, 13:27   #6 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Cheshire, England
Posts: 2,823
Default Re: A thought on Tactical Squads....

I'm also very fond of the new Special Rules: not only are they brilliantly useful on the table but also represent the tactical prowess Space Marines are supposed to manipulate and I'm glad they've introduced these rules.

Another note on Combat Squads would be that if you have weapons that don't compliment each other well in the same Tactical [or Devastator] Squad, e.g. Flamer and Missile Launcher, then you can split them up so they can work separately, carrying out the task their special or heavy weapon was designed for.

The Tactical Squad is a fantastic Troop. It's tough, like any marine. However, it lacks the sheer force of many of our other units. I'd discourage taking masses(5+) of them in any game below 2000pts as below that, you'll have relatively few Elite units in your army. And Marine Elites have far more punch than the Tactical Squad. Plus, it's boring to play as/against.
I agree with this and sometimes I don't bother posting on a Marine Army List if they've just loaded out on Tactical Squads. The only main advantage of doing this would be Bolter traps but that's still are very boring game than it would be if you included Assault Squads, Veterans, Terminators etc. Also, it's totally disregarding fluff, which many people do unfortunately.

The Las/Plas: A lascannon and a Plasma Gun. Ten man squad, broken down. The Lascannon and the Plasma Gun stay in the same squad while the Sergeant takes 4 Bolter Marines. Consider a Power Fist on the Sergeant to make that 5 man squad a counter charge unit. I'm not too fond of this setup.
I'm only referring to the part in bold but I thought it would be better if you could still see the context. I'd say that a Power Weapon would be more suited to a counter-charge than a Fist as it doesn't force the Sergeant to strike last, which would otherwise effectively remove the 'counter' from the charge and also the PW is likely to kill more people which enhances the power of the counter-charge.

Very important things. If you suspect you maybe using a CC combat squad, I'd recommend a Razorback. It can protect them decently enough, and can also lay down some advancing fire.
Also, if you have a 5-man Squad then an Independent Characte,r not equipped with a Jump Pack or wearing Terminator Armour, can join them in the transport.

However, I'd stay away from exchanging the weapons on Razorbacks. They're fairly pricey, and can easily double the price of the razorback(which is a bad idea as a Razorback is relatively fragile).
Whilst you do make a good point I find that if I'm slightly lacking in anti-tank weaponry simply upgrading the options on the Razorback is much cheaper than many other options. Also, it provides you with a mobile firing platform, though I wouldn't advise using it in that way until the tank has fulfilled it's primary use.

[hr]

During the missions where Troops choices play a pivotal role, do you really want to encourage your opponent to target your combat squads by loading up on powerful upgrades?... Can you really say the same about a powerfist sergeant with a plasma pistol leading combat squad with a plasma gun?
In a list that is well written there should be several more units that will attract the attention of your opponent rather than a 5-man Tactical Squad with a couple of strong models in it. Some examples: Terminators; Assault Squads; Vanguard and Sternguard Veterans, and they're just four/five units, there's also vehicles and Characters which easily attract much more attention than the unit you suggested.

Especially in the turns leading up to your attempt to seize the objective with your tactical squads, because that is when they are generating the highest level of implied threat. Now keeping that in mind, would you really want your tactical squads especially when split-up into five man combat squads to generate high levels of both implied and real threat?
Yes because the 5-man units can still work together and fulfill different roles, complimenting their different styles to their best tacticaly ability. Also, if your opponent doesn't focus on some of the more deadly units which I mentioned earlier then they'll just get annihilated and so there's no need to worry about your smaller Tactical Squads. Also, your argument only truly applies to Seize and Hold, one of three battles that can be played.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minako
That may just be helped by massive boobs though, i'm female. I don't know how that shiz works...
arandomshadow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01 Nov 2008, 22:52   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 224
Default Re: A thought on Tactical Squads....

How Many tactical squads would you say over balance the list? I Usually play with three or so.
__________________

(\_/) this is bunny
(0.o) please copy and paste this into your sig and
'(__)' help him achieve world domination
Greater good or bust. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01 Nov 2008, 23:55   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 213
Default Re: A thought on Tactical Squads....

I don't combat squad my marines, it's just giving you ropponents potentially two kill points instead of 1, and if they just take out 3 marines, your combat squad can not be counted as scoring, rather than them having to kill six to reduce your scoring potential.
takahashikun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02 Nov 2008, 00:23   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Argentina
Posts: 583
Send a message via MSN to Adam Baker
Default Re: A thought on Tactical Squads....

Quote:
Originally Posted by takahashikun
I don't combat squad my marines, it's just giving you ropponents potentially two kill points instead of 1, and if they just take out 3 marines, your combat squad can not be counted as scoring, rather than them having to kill six to reduce your scoring potential.
Takahashikun, in 5th Edition, a Troops choice always counts as scoring, even if it has only one member.
Adam Baker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02 Nov 2008, 13:57   #10 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Cheshire, England
Posts: 2,823
Default Re: A thought on Tactical Squads....

How Many tactical squads would you say over balance the list?
Well I would never play with more than three as I don't usually play large games. I don't like it when people create lists with more than four, and then it has to be at least 1,500pts because otherwise it's obvious they're probably Troop spamming.

Takahashikun, if you equip a Tactical Squad with two weapons that are going to render one another useless at various times [e.g. Flamer and Missile Launcher] then it makes more sense to split them up. Although I'd argue they should never be armed that way anyway.
Also, if a squad is separated it is more versatile because more units can be targeted, therefore harassing your enemy more efficiently and causing more chaos.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minako
That may just be helped by massive boobs though, i'm female. I don't know how that shiz works...
arandomshadow is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Tactical Squads of less than 10 The Canadian Snowbird Space Marines 8 23 Mar 2009 22:02
Tactica - Tactical Squads - Load out warriorchris Space Marines 8 13 Feb 2009 22:18
Tactical squads- do you always have at least one in your army? Adamblaze Space Marines 41 04 Apr 2008 20:17
Scoutish army (No Tactical squads) Betus Maximus Space Marines Army Lists 3 27 Nov 2006 01:05
tactical squads vs. Scout squads Vaderhader Space Marines 6 25 Nov 2005 08:36