[Spiritbw]

Okay, folks, just to give you an idea of the list I play with here is my 1700 point challenge board list.* See what you think of it.

HQ

Librarian; Codicier
Terminator armour, terminator honours, stormbolter, Veil of Time

with
Terminator Command Squad
1 terminator with assault cannon
2 terminators with stormbolters
1 sgt terminator with powerweapon

Cost- 335 points

Chaplain; Reclusiarch
Artificer armour, terminator honours, plasma pistol

with
Command Squad
4 marines with bolters
1 Sgt with terminator honours, powerfist, boltpistol

Cost- 215 points

ELITES

Dreadnaught
Heavy flamer, smoke launchers, extra armour

cost- 128 points

TROOPS

Tactical Squad A
6 marines with bolters
1 marine with flamer
Sgt with power weapon, terminator honours and bolt pistol

Cost- 151 points

Tactical Squad B
6 marines with bolters
1 marine with flamer
Sgt with power weapon, terminator honours and bolt pistol

Cost- 151 points

Scout Squad
4 scouts with sniper rifles
4 scouts with bolters

cost- 124 points

FAST ATTACK

Landspeeder Tornado
Heavy bolter and assault cannon

cost- 80 points

Landspeeder Tornado
Heavy bolter and assault cannon

cost- 80 points

HEAVY SUPPORT

Devastator Squad
4 marines with rocket launchers
3 marines with bolters
Sgt with terminar honours, bolter and powerfist

cost- 230 points

Devastator Squad
4 marines with heavy bolters
3 marines with bolters
Sgt with terminator honours, bolter and powerfist

cost- 210 points

[Waldo_Pepper]

Looks like a solid enough list. Why are you wasting points on a PF for the devastator squads though? In most games it won't see any action and when it does it's probably too late anyways b/c my guess is that 90% of your army would already be dead.

I would design the scouts either to stand still and shoot (i.e., give them a heavy bolter too) or make them mobile (drop the sniper rifles). 8 scouts seems like a bit of a waste (it makes them harder to get into cover without clumping them together). Here's a thought: drop the sniper rifles and give the sgt term honors and a power fist. Now you have a fast moving, infiltrating, cheap (as SMs go) CC unit.

If you're going to go the 1 flamer, sgt with a PW route it would be better to do so on an assault marine unit (w/o jump packs). Then everyone is geared up for CC.

[Brother-Captain]

Thats a good list... a slow moving army, but it has a good mix of close combat and ranged power to keep it grinding forward easily. Only thing I can say about it realy, drop the Devestator's Power Fist and give it to your Codicier, he would make better use of it then a devastator would any day. Not to mention how Terminator honours are a waste without some sort of close combat weapon.

[Spiritbw]

[please forgive my previous version of this post.* I had done up a full response earlier and hits omething that caused it to wipe two hours of work out.]

Brother-Captain.... He comes with some equipment already and under the right situations that can do more than a powerfist can.*

I'll address Waldo_Pepper's comments and explain why I do things the way I do.* *I should probably have done that first when I posted.*

Originally Posted by Waldo_Pepper

Why are you wasting points on a PF for the devastator squads though?

Three reasons really for this.* One is Space Wolf Scouts, the second is Necron Wraiths and the third is Tyranid Lictors.* All are very very good at getting behind the lines and all make wonderfull units for really F-ing up things like Devastator squads as they all hit hard in CC.* There are to be honest, way to many of these armies where I play.* Putting a power weapon or fist in the squad makes them think twice about this and consider other targets.* That in turn keeps the much higher cost of my heavy weapons blazing away instead of tied up in close combat.

It is also is a nasty suprise in take-and-hold missions where the Devastators can start on the table, but some of my better close combat units have to come in later.* The shining point for my using this came in the form of a Winged Hive Tyrant attacking my devs on a objective.* The Sgt went toe to toe and killed it without loss to the squad in two turns of hand to hand.* Had I not had that fist I would have had the squad wiped out and have lost a good chunk of my fire support against the swarms.

I would design the scouts either to stand still and shoot (i.e., give them a heavy bolter too) or make them mobile (drop the sniper rifles).

* Agreed, but the squad tends to be for me a stop gap measure rather than anything else. They are really there to deal with big creatures like Carnifex or Wraithlords or if need be, to move to take objectives at the last moment if I've taken heavy losses.* I'd probably put more sniper rifles in if I could, but points and no additional scout models keep that from happening.

Long and short, they are there as backup.* The rifles are cheap and make them have some use but if I'm relying on these guys I'm in trouble.

8 scouts seems like a bit of a waste (it makes them harder to get into cover without clumping them together).

* If that is a problem for you in your games your not using enough cover on the table.* We usually have at least two small forests or ruined buildings that could possibly fit a Landraider if you positioned it right.* Even then there is usually something they can hunker down behind to get some cover.*

In any case the reason for using more troops is because they need to be able to absorb some wounds and still maintain thier use.* If I only use a squad of five it takes three wounds to reduce them to half strength.* A squad of eight however needs to loose five to be below half strength.

Here's a thought: drop the sniper rifles and give the sgt term honors and a power fist. Now you have a fast moving, infiltrating, cheap (as SMs go) CC unit.

* Ah, no.* First off, if it's going to assault I'd rather give them a power weapon since that gives him a better Initative.* If I go agianst vehicles I'd rather have kraks as 8 hits at a higher strength have a better chance of doing something and it costs aobut the same.* If it was a creature they needed it for...WTF are they doing in combat with it in the first place?!?!

If you're going to go the 1 flamer, sgt with a PW route it would be better to do so on an assault marine unit (w/o jump packs). Then everyone is geared up for CC.

* Well for one thing, it's over specialization.* For another, if I did that I'd that I would either have to use traits or fail to meet the minimum FOC requirments.* You did note this is a purely codex force right?

Besides, a flamer doesn't really works in combat but does wonders in close range shooting and that is the general idea.* Get as close as possible and shoot as many as possible.* Flamers have the wonder of not needing die rolss to hit, just wound and can hit more than two models depending on how they are placed.* The power weapon helps if I decide it's better to charge but given a choice I'll stand back and shoot any day.

Which brings us to why they aren't just assault marines without the jump packs.* Assault marines get pistols and chainswords.* Pistols only have a range of 12" and can't rapid fire if I move.* They also only get one shot if I move or charge and to be honest, while marines are good at CC, they are not great.*

Against Tau or Guard charging is a great idea.* Against other Marines, Necrons and some Chaos, it's a case by case situation.* Against Khorn Beserkers, demons of most types, Orks of any flavour, Tyrainds of almost all types, Dark Eldar of most types and half of the Eldar it's a very very bad one.* No matter how tough they say a Marine is they can usually crack one open like a can of beer(and depending on who is doing the cracking they just might drink the pulverised contents too).

So what do you do in those cases?* You find a nice sturdy piece of masonary and you hold your ground and take advantage of the bolter's longer range to blow as many of them away as you can before they reach you.* If you did things right you'll break some units before they reach you, wittle others down to the point where your troops can manage while the rest get to deal with your highly effective Terminators, dreadnaughts and HQ types ready to counter attack.

[Spiritbw]

Obviously editing doesn't bump something up, even if I added more. Apologies for the bump. The important info is in the post above.

[Brother-Captain]

Oh yes, I completely forgot about them getting force weapons, thank you for reminding me Spirit! Alright so now i'm interested what tactics are used behing this list? I have a pretty good idea of what you MIGHT do but i'd like to hear what you actually do.

[Spiritbw]

Tactics huh? Well, I don't know what youhave in mind but do they go something like this?

Setup pretty much depends on who I'm facing but a few things deploy in pretty standard locations. Of course Dev squads go into or near a nice section of terrain or earthworks that can act as cover while providing as open an area for thier line of sight as possible. Scouts are pretty much the same ide athough infiltrate means they might get a position that let's them set up a crossfire to cover the blank spots and to put them close to, if not in, a diffrent table quarter.

The troops and some other units deploy depending on how I think they could best be used. If a charge is best I try to find the msot protected route and group both squads and the chaplain command squad to move en masse. The Landspeeders are set up to either provide support fire or to zip ahead to clear opposition that might take them out beofre reaching the enemy lines. The Dread can lumber along as well but as a firemagnet sometimes makes his own charge, the smoke launchers and extra armour keeping him moving most of the time.

If there is no one good route I'll have one of the tacticals follow the dread but i'm finding of late it works better to hit en mass to both take advantage of and negate the outnumbered rules when CC is joined. The termies I tend to be daring with and teleport down as close as possible to the enemy where the asault cannon and stormbolter shots can wreck ahvoc on the nearest troops then go after enemy fire support.

If I prefer to shoot I try to set up a 'denied flank' with things set towards one edge of the board. That way they can come at my front, or from the one side but either way they would come close to my whole army and not just one squad they could try to pick off. Only downside is that once CC get's going if they burst through I might be in for charge after cahrge as they can be a bit to close to each other.

This is one case where the scouts might be back with the devastator squads while the tacticals and the Chaplain form a front line. The landspeeders and the dreadnaught wander freely between the two ready to counter attack any charges or just provide extra firepower. The number of assualt cannons works great for stopping even power armoured foes. the Librarian and termies can be kept in reserve, ready to either provide an extra bit of power if things start going bad or teleport down at the back of the lines if enemy firepower is a problem.

[Kingnova3000]

Mmmm not a bad list. I think you are spending way to many points on your HQ choices, one command squad really is enough IMO. Join the Chaplain with just a normal tactical squad, with the left over points from not takin the command squad boost a tactical squad up to 9 marines and if you can squeeze it in some how, give them a rhino just to have a bit of mobility (yes you do have the fast Land Speeders but dont tend to hold ground as wel as a dug in tactical squad who was moved into position by the rhino).

Yep and drop the PFs from the devastator squads and put the 30 points some where else (like two extra marines for Tactical Squad B. And also seeing as you are going for a more shooty army (well so it seems) may I suggest giving the codicer Vortex of Doom instead, with that power backed up by the Terminator Assault Cannons and Storm Bolters enemy units will have a hard time getting close to fight. Also some heavy weapons in those tactical squads are needed, 8 marine walking on foot wont last for very long with their only support weapon is a flamer (these kind of squads would be excellent in Razorbacks if you dropped their number down to 6. Drive them up 6 inches pile them out rapid fire and flame the enemy and the Razorback can also put in some excellent fire power to support them).

I know I have suggested quite few things that wont all be possible to do in the one list, but some of them would be.

So the list is looking good, IMO just some minor modifications are needed.

[Waldo_Pepper]

Originally Posted by Spiritbw

Three reasons really for this. One is Space Wolf Scouts, the second is Necron Wraiths and the third is Tyranid Lictors. All are very very good at getting behind the lines and all make wonderfull units for really F-ing up things like Devastator squads as they all hit hard in CC. There are to be honest, way to many of these armies where I play. Putting a power weapon or fist in the squad makes them think twice about this and consider other targets.

I'm not sure I agree with this - what other targets are they going to go after? The devastators are the juiciest target (and likely the closest for the wolf scouts) and the risk would be worth it. A good opponent will hit the unit on one end, kill the couple of models in BtB and then guess what? You don't get any attacks back. PFs can be avoided by smart opponents when they charge you with nasty units.

The shining point for my using this came in the form of a Winged Hive Tyrant attacking my devs on a objective. The Sgt went toe to toe and killed it without loss to the squad in two turns of hand to hand. Had I not had that fist I would have had the squad wiped out and have lost a good chunk of my fire support against the swarms.

Cool. However, if the HT missed with all those attacks then it made no difference that the sgt had a PF. The tyrant is a monstrous creature and denies armor saves so he must have wiffed for 2 turns... that equals nobody dead either way.

Ah, no. First off, if it's going to assault I'd rather give them a power weapon since that gives him a better Initative. If I go agianst vehicles I'd rather have kraks as 8 hits at a higher strength have a better chance of doing something and it costs aobut the same. If it was a creature they needed it for...WTF are they doing in combat with it in the first place?!?!

No, I was thinking more in terms of giving them a teleport homer to guide the termies in - it would take the danger out of deep strike.

I'd second Kingnova's suggestion for a different psychic power though I'd suggest Fear of the Darkness if you're going to be deepstriking. Veil of Time sounds cool but you don't have anyone great in that squad to use it on (maybe the assault cannon guy) and if you use it on the librarian he can't use his force weapon that turn making it less than ideal. Why not find a way to put a 2nd assault cannon in that squad? It sure would make it a lot more deadly when it comes down which is really helpful given that they're sitting ducks that first turn placed in a perfect "plasma cannon fodder" formation.

[Spiritbw]

Veil of Time only effects the Librarian, not one of the other models with him. Read the entry. Vortex of Doom only effects standard size troop models. Anything else is pretty much safe from it. While it can be used to target a specific model it's limited to basicly being an HQ killer and then only if they are of a certain size. I agree Fear the Darkness is a good power and one I sometimes take instead. While this is one of my lists, it's not my only list. I do vary things form time to time especially to try out new ideas.

Anyhow, the reason for the choice here was I expected to be comming under heavy fire rather quickly sometimes. While the assualt cannon gives it good firepower the turn they teleport in the main idea was to close and attack hand to hand. Fear the Darkness is a shooting power so wouldn't be good when in h2h but the ability to reroll his attacks and wounds with the force weapon would mean cutting through more troops. If I faced a character the Librarian could always opt not to use the power and instead use his force weapon's special ability.

Other considerations are partally because of my own belief in how I want my army to work, my dice luck and what models I have available. I have always had the opinion that heavy weapons in a Tactical squad were more of a liability than benefit. Yes they have more punch, but only if they sit in one spot. If they move it is unusable, even if you use a rhino or razorback to move them about. If they are going to sit still I might as well put the heavy weapons in a devastator squad as they can concentrate thier firepower without tying up basic troopers.

I have been tempted to do Cleanse and Purify in my army, but I'm still trying to see the diffrent ways the units now work under the changes in the new codex and 4th edition rules. Till I'm sure of a few things I'm going to hold off doing that then maybe start throwing other combinations of special weapons in there. For now, I have often used flamers to great success and admittedly see them as being part of the fluff I have about my army. Plasma would be better probably but that get's into my dice luck.

Power weapons in all squads tends to be something many wonder about. I admit, when I first heard it I wasn't sure myself. Still, it's been enough of a game saver in games since that I take it as standard part of my army. PFs might be a bit much for Devastators. Still the higher strength means that when they do hit they are pretty much insured to wound and unless it's something like a HT, die outright regardless of the number of wounds. It does get switched around form time to time though there is still a power weapon at least in the Devs squads.

There are a few things I try to avoid just because quite simply, I have never had any luck with them. One of those is plasma. Plasma and the 'Get's Hot!' rule are a bane for my troopers it seems as I have had marines die to it more often then they have made kills in games. Ater a while I just relegated it to the rare pistol that could be in the hands of someone with artificer armour. Only so often that you can roll a 1 after all.

Same goes for transports. I have honestly considered trading in the few vehicles I have in this list for more troops because quite simply had lousy luck with them. The one glancing hit will be a six on the chart. In cover a Basalisk or a Defiler will have indirect fire and land a shot on target. Long and short, I'd wind up foot-slogging anyhow. After enough times it just seemed simpler to keep the transports off the field and start foot slogging from the start.

The rest is basicly a lack of models. I'd like to stick a second assault cannon in the Terminator squad, but lack the model or proper parts to make a decent conversion. Same goes for doing any sort of massed armour really. Besides the reasons stated above about my luck with vehicles I simply lack the models to actually outfit all my squads with transports.

All in all, despite what you might say this list wins more games than it loses. It works for me with my tactics wich sometimes go outside of what people consider 'normal' space marine tactics. Heck, I've seen alot of winning lists that often goa gainst what most people will tell you is a good idea. I gave one example in one of my previous posts of a army list that went undefeated.

I've been playing for some time now, and probably am not going to change my tactics. It's good advice, but I've been over the options for the most part. Unless someone suggests something radicly diffrent, I don't think anything here will be changed.