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Various Primarch Questions
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Old 05 Jun 2007, 06:17   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Various Primarch Questions

The group I've been playing with these last few months has decided to run a summer campaign of our own. The theme... the return of a lost Primarch and his legion. The general consensus is that they were lost in the warp during the Horus Heresy and have very recently emerged on the eastern edge of the galactic plane. The Imperium believes they were renegade, Chaos would love to bring them into the fold, and everyone else is Xenos scum so there opinion doesn't count. In short they're making a push for Terra and anyone they bump into will meet the business end of very old bolters.

As for my questions... (I'm sure I'll have a few more in time)

1. What all did a legion have at its disposal? What troop types would it NOT have (ie Terminators, Scouts, Ogryn,Titans)

2. Naval Assets, I'm not familiar with Battlefleet Gothic but a general idea of cruisers, transports, battleships, ect would really help our space boat guys.

3. Representation... I'm basically thinking of using Chaos Marine squad layouts without chaos type upgrades with allied IG. At this point it looks like we'll be fielding 4000ish point lists per battle with 2 players per side

4. The Primarch... what kind of stats and abilities would this one man army have? Abbandon + Psy Powers? I can't even begin to imagine what this guy can do so advice here would be great (house rule-ish I know but I just want a general idea before we start writing anything)

I know we're gonna have to create house rules for this event, but in general this is going to be a war of attrition so raw numbers is where I need to begin. I don't think anyone in our group thinks the legion has a prayer of reaching Terra but I personally think they will compare very well with a hive fleet in scope of damage.

As always thanks in advance for any help yall might be able to provide, feel free to feed me links to things if it would be easier for yahs, and we wont be starting for at least 2 more weeks. In closing Vista should be avoided like the plague and a faulty space bar makes posting a royal pain.
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Old 05 Jun 2007, 09:37   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Various Primarch Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morgue
The group I've been playing with these last few months has decided to run a summer campaign of our own. The theme... the return of a lost Primarch and his legion. The general consensus is that they were lost in the warp during the Horus Heresy and have very recently emerged on the eastern edge of the galactic plane. The Imperium believes they were renegade, Chaos would love to bring them into the fold, and everyone else is Xenos scum so there opinion doesn't count. In short they're making a push for Terra and anyone they bump into will meet the business end of very old bolters.
As dubious as I find this concept, I'll press onto your questions...

Quote:
1. What all did a legion have at its disposal? What troop types would it NOT have (ie Terminators, Scouts, Ogryn,Titans)
It's somewhat vague. Some material (particularly the really old stuff) states that the Legions had their own Titans, and commanded vast arrays of tanks and artillery formations.

However, based on more recent material I would guess that the Astartes were autonomous as they are now, just on a larger scale. They would have their own tanks, flyers, artillery and starships (they still do). They had Terminators, but in very limited numbers. It is unclear if they used Scouts. They did not make use of Guard elements, or Abhumans or Titans (all of these are seperate forces).

Quote:
2. Naval Assets, I'm not familiar with Battlefleet Gothic but a general idea of cruisers, transports, battleships, ect would really help our space boat guys.
Look at the ships in the Chaos Fleet. Those will be the ships used at the time of the Horus Heresy. Marines did not yet have their own vessel types as they do now, and the "modern" Imperial designs came about somewhere around M36.

Quote:
3. Representation... I'm basically thinking of using Chaos Marine squad layouts without chaos type upgrades with allied IG. At this point it looks like we'll be fielding 4000ish point lists per battle with 2 players per side
I think the current Space Marine Codex, with a few modifications, could easily represent a Legion.

Quote:
4. The Primarch... what kind of stats and abilities would this one man army have? Abbandon + Psy Powers? I can't even begin to imagine what this guy can do so advice here would be great (house rule-ish I know but I just want a general idea before we start writing anything)
I wouldn't field him at all. If you insist on doing so, however, make him a Movie-Marine (ie: Straight 6s for Stats).

Quote:
I know we're gonna have to create house rules for this event, but in general this is going to be a war of attrition so raw numbers is where I need to begin. I don't think anyone in our group thinks the legion has a prayer of reaching Terra but I personally think they will compare very well with a hive fleet in scope of damage.
A full Legion could be potentially devastating, but they wouldn't get to Terra. Horus needed half the resources of the Imperium to pull that off... your Legion has, at best, 15 Chapter's worth.
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Old 05 Jun 2007, 16:10   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Various Primarch Questions

if you're using the CSM codex for your legion could you possibly use demonic gifts to represent his special stats?
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Old 05 Jun 2007, 16:33   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Various Primarch Questions

Thanks much Wargamer, I can't argue about the theme being far fetched... but at least it gives us an overall theme for the campaigne thats easy to follow. I really thought pre-heresy legions commanded IG and Titan forces, but if thats not the case it simply makes organisation easier for this.

The Grand Seer, I think that was part of the reason the gang decided to use the CSM Codex
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Old 05 Jun 2007, 17:11   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Various Primarch Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morgue
Thanks much Wargamer, I can't argue about the theme being far fetched... but at least it gives us an overall theme for the campaigne thats easy to follow. I really thought pre-heresy legions commanded IG and Titan forces, but if thats not the case it simply makes organisation easier for this.
I think the Primarchs probably would have had overall strategic command of the equivalents of the Imperial Guard and Titan Legions accompanying them. The Departo Munitorum would not have existed in its current form back then, so the chains of command would have been very different. They would still have been seperate entities, but the Space Marines would have wielded a lot more control than they do now, acting as they were as direct representatives of the Emperor.
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Old 05 Jun 2007, 19:46   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Various Primarch Questions

its less likely that an entire legion would go missing, far more likely that one of the expeditionary fleets would go missing. This would include ad mech, imperial army (early guard, pretty much just basic infantry) and some of one of the legions.

It is not worth trying to use a primarch, partly because the model would be unfeasible, and secondly because he could kill EVERYTHING. One of the primarchs fought off the emperor, the most powerful (human) psyker ever to live.

According to the art books the ships look pretty much the same, but i would go with wargamer here, just because it makes more sense. However, there would be a lot of variation as the ad mech was less unified then. There was a lot of strange inventions about...

Effectively just use the marines list. There were scouts and terminators, or at least some evidence

In response to wargamer, while the imperial army was a seperate organisation, they were in support of the astartes and were under direct command of them. Titans were under the command of the techpriests
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Old 06 Jun 2007, 01:16   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Various Primarch Questions

The Titan Legions had their own command structure, as did the Adeptus mechanicus and the Imperial Army. However a Primarch would have overall command but not necessarily a standard marine.

While it is true that there are supposedly 20 legions but only 18 listed, it's still far fetched to try and bring one of those legions back as that would be a galaxy changing event on the scale of a major campaign. While it's simple and easy it's not exactly subtle and may get less than kind looks from some vets or self proclaimed vets :.

What would be more likely is an expeditionary fleet, whole Legions just didn't sail around together till the Heresy and even then whole fleets weren't lost, some ships yes but not entire legions worth of fleets. A smaller expeditionary force however could still contain multiple companies, multiple chapters of marines and quite a few ships along with Guard, Navy and possibly Titan support. Some had Primarchs leading them but not most. A Primarch is literally a superhuman monster capable of fighting off whole forces of marines. For instance Angron had a whole fortress wall fall on him, killing scores of World Eaters only to shove the wreckage off him like it was dust and carve through the surviving defenders with abandon. Sanguinius picked up a Greater Daemon of Khorn of immense power and broke it over his knee like a rag doll. Perturabo scythed through scores of augmetically enhanced aliens in seconds and carried a gun that fired a beam of immense power, vaporizing most anything it hit. You get the idea. These guys just aren't really representable on the table top, each one would probably cost almost as many points as a Warhound Titan and probably be just as durable and powerful... just a lot smaller, but still dwarfing even Terminators.

However a Chapter Master or equivalent leader of the Astartes at the time would be a powerful individual indeed and have an immense knowledge of warfare. What would probably work best is to either pick a traitor legion to have the force from, and use the Chaos Codex to represent it, minus daemons. Since the Chaos codex pretty much represents the Astartes forces before the Heresy, though minus the Daemons, and the Defiler. Terminators had combi bolters, not storm bolters. The Assault cannon wasn't yet worked past it's various kinks. Combi weapons were more prevalent, no scouts, no land speeders, no razorbacks, Land Raider Crusaders etc.

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Old 06 Jun 2007, 04:46   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Various Primarch Questions

Thank you all very much! I'm not exactly sure how I got roped into running this but I certainly don't have the lore related knowledge to make it work on my own (hence my post). While I do know how far fetched this whole scheme is, it has already been decided on by the group... I think the primary reason being, how many SM players we have, as opposed to other armies. Aside from tables we have very little fabrication needs.

In review:

Naval Forces - A Capital Ship or two, 4ish Transport Ships, 2-3 Cruisers / Frigates, and there varied fighter / bomber assets ?

SM Forces - 5ish Chapters worth of marines complete with varied ground assets (ie tanks)

IG Forces - 1-2 Battalions of Infantry

Titan Forces - one or two Epic games worth of giants

As for the Primarch himself I'll see if I can talk them into running with a suitably hero'd out commander instead. Knowing what I know now I really don't even want to try creating rules for this monster.

Our local hobby shops (2 GWs included) are absolutely worthless outside of buying models so this is our summer campaign. We have enough money in our munchy fund to rent the local fire hall for 3 nights so it looks like we'll be having a few mega battles this summer. With 26 active players in the club it should be interresting at the very least.

Just wanted to explain the logic behind this bizarre theme
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Old 06 Jun 2007, 05:39   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Various Primarch Questions

That sounds... painful.

Having good organization skills, some writing capability and background knowledge of the game are certainly assets one should have, if not entirely needed when trying to run a campaign. I've done a few and they can be trying though I've never seen one with so many people involved. Good luck!
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Old 06 Jun 2007, 18:58   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Various Primarch Questions

Ahhhh... the old school... ;D

If you want to make an army out of the past... use the past as inspiration... old editions... ancient white dwarf (I still have one from 1980-something-ish haha)... I will share what I know and hope it helps make your game kick Ah'zs

Origionally, the Marines did have their own Titans, their own Space fleet, and their own auxilliary troops which were not Imperial Guard.
The Marine fleet of a chapter is mostly light cruisers and landers, with one gigantic Flagship - the Navy was all about the battleships. But a Space Marine LEGION before it was dispersed into chapters - they have all kinds of ships. They were intended to be completely autonomous.

The Titans of a Marine Legion are not to be confused with the mechanicus titans of the Titan Legion. One of the ancient Bill King stories (and he is the godfather of fluff) mention the Reaver and Warhound titans assembled on a parade ground awaiting the inspection by the Lord Commander, his techmarine, chaplain, and librarian before engaging orks during the origional Armageddon campaign (where Yarrick lost his arm). The origional Titan game was called 'Space Marine'. Think about it. Warlords were very very rare, and imperators just didn't exist. The Reaver was the marine Titan of choice (and it's still the coolest one!)

Sheesh... kids these days... revisionist history of 40,000 years in the future. I'm not sure on the use of the word 'irony' but somehow it makes sense here.

This little gripe is notwithstanding as playing with titans in anything but epic scale is just silly unless you have access to a tennis court for a board.
[hr]
Now back to the questionably useful tidbits of info out of my decaying memory bank:

If you have access to old 'beaky' mk. VI power armor figures (or any of the ancient old classic armor) I would say use them as an archetype . Back in the day, they had chain-bayonettes for their bolters and they all had a bolt pistol as well. Every marine had power armor, a bolter/boltpist./and possibly a c.c.w. (chain-bayonet, chainet?) as standard issue. The sergeants did not have bolters. Ever. They had boltpistols and chainswords. It wasn't an option it was CODEX ASTARTES PURITY. The squad wants a leader with a sword. Makes 'em feel proud or something.

Also, ALL the squads were of a regimented size, 10 tactical or assault marines potentially split into 2 groups of 5, 10 devastators - traditionally split 2 heavy weapons per group of 5 or 1 squad of 'cannon fodder' with 5 bolters and 1 squad with 4 heavy weapons and sarge. This was the way of the Codex Astartes. They never had variable sized squads. Again its a purity thing.

If you are bean counting points I would suggest adding an extra point in there to represent their old-school armament having that bolt pistol/ccw combo as well as the bolter.

Back in the day almost all the heavy weapons for the marines were heavy bolters. They used a few missile launchers - but plasmacannons and lascannons and multimeltas were extremely rare 'experimental' weapons. Flamers were the only special weapon found in tactical squads because there just weren't any plasma/melta guns in great numbers (they used to be only given to characters in the rules from back in ye olde dayes).

As far as the auxillia - use a standard guard list I would think, but again, base it on the old figure line... (cadians look closest to the origional Guard Phalanx)... walking walls of lasguns, with a sergeant, plus a lascannon or autocannon for every 10 troops - standard - Captain (i.e. Senior Officer), 2 lieutennants(i.e. junior officer), plus a Commissar for every hundred. This was the origional Guard phalanx.

Back in the glory days, Guardsmen didn't mess around with much special weapons either. Just flamers and Grenade Launchers. It wasn't until late 2nd ed. that they were even allowed to take meltas and plasmas.

Maybe you could tack on the 'close order drill', 'iron discipline', perhaps 'Die Hards' doctrines to represent that they aren't actually Guard, but auxilliaries of an origional Space Marine Legion so they are probably braver and more orderly.

[hr]
finally... back to the origional primarch idea...
I think it rocks by the way. D'anmb the naysayers who question its validity fluffwise. Go with it. Its a game!

The primarchs could well be statted like ordinary powerful marine heroes in my opinion - with some power here or there (like Sangie's wings) but much of the myth that surrounds them is more of a tall-tale folklore biblical type of exaggeration.

- Most loyal citizens of the Imperium also believe the emporer is not a vegetable. They are easily fooled. Good thing the high lords o' terra keep the propeganda machine running or chaos would ensue (with a little c). And then Chaos would ensue (with a big C). >

Of all of them... only Angron with the wings and teeth and horns, Magnus with the big'ol eye of doom, etc. and the other chaos major demons had any specific powers. Not part of their genetic augmentation, but gifted by chaos. Oh yeah, and Sanguineous had his wings and vampiric tendencies... (I always wondered if that makes blood angels filthy mutant heretic worshippers)

No mention is made of Robot Gilly, or Leman Russ, RogalDorn, or Lionel Jons, or any of them posessing any supernatural power - just awesome warriors and superior battle commanders. Perhaps they all have personality quirks... and Leman had big teeth, and Roboutte (sp?) had supernatural anal-retentive adherence to doctrine - but nothing specific and game-affecting.

I'd say just stat him like a marine hero with lots of fancy wargear, and give him an extra wound or something for being old.
[hr]
Well cheers to you for undertaking this cool idea.
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