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Ultramarine-only units used outside of Ultramarines?
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Old 07 May 2007, 01:18   #1 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Ultramarine-only units used outside of Ultramarines?

Hello all,

I've been thinking of expanding the Space Marines I have right now, from a combination of sources (mostly the BFM starter set). I already have a Chaplain, Librarian, and a few other heavy weapon toting SMs. Now, this isn't any competitive army, I'd just like to have a small force of Marines when I feel like trying something else for a while.

I thought it'd be fun to grab some units that are rivals to my most beloved Tyranids - Tyranid Hunters. Only problem, my Space Marines aren't Ultramarines. I dislike the Ultramarine color scheme, and their strictness to the Codex is so... well, boring!

So my question is, basically, if you want to your local game shop and asked if they could use Tyranid Hunters outside of Ultramarines. or even Ultramarine Honor Guard, for that matter, would you be OK with it?

Keep in mind this has nothing to do with Special Characters, just the units.
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Old 07 May 2007, 01:40   #2 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Ultramarine-only units used outside of Ultramarines?

Thats completely up to them. I wouldn't care.
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Old 07 May 2007, 01:47   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ultramarine-only units used outside of Ultramarines?

If its an Ultramarine successor chapter that is vanilla codex with no traits then its probably okay for the honour guard but for any other chapter I'd go with a good solid no. You wouldn't use wolfgaurd blood angles or ravenwing baal predators.

The Tyranid hunters rules are actually pretty much special characters, being the representation of Tyrannic war veterans- who by definition would come from the ultramarines chapter so I really doubt you can excuse there use in a non ultramarine force.

They're two really powerful units though so I doubt you'll get many people say its okay to use them in anything but blue armour once they've read the entry.
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Old 07 May 2007, 02:00   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ultramarine-only units used outside of Ultramarines?

Simple. Make them "counts as" or use Rules as Written. It doesn't say no.
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Old 07 May 2007, 02:19   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ultramarine-only units used outside of Ultramarines?

You can do counts as but you must abide by the restrictions. You can't have an army using traits and still use the Special Characters or Units. Ultramarines aren't the only ones who get those characters and units, any vanilla army can pretty much make use of them as they can be "counts as" ultramarines and fluff wise name the characters something else. Wedge instead of Tigurius and Bigs instead of Cassius for example.

On another note what do you have against the Ultras fluff? They abide by the codex but they aren't boring, they do make alterations (as the presence of the Honor Guard and Nid Hunters shows) and they have some great Characters such as Calgar and Galatan. At face value the Ultras look very plain, but delve further into their fluff and a lot of character can come out. So if you haven't taken a look you might want to scratch more off the surface, its surprising what you will find in a background as diverse as that of 40k.
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Old 07 May 2007, 02:45   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ultramarine-only units used outside of Ultramarines?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadpool
If its an Ultramarine successor chapter that is vanilla codex with no traits then its probably okay for the honour guard but for any other chapter I'd go with a good solid no. You wouldn't use wolfgaurd blood angles or ravenwing baal predators.

The Tyranid hunters rules are actually pretty much special characters, being the representation of Tyrannic war veterans- who by definition would come from the ultramarines chapter so I really doubt you can excuse there use in a non ultramarine force.

They're two really powerful units though so I doubt you'll get many people say its okay to use them in anything but blue armour once they've read the entry.
Well, I'm talking about the Space Marine Codex. If it was Dark Angels, Black Templars, etc. I would probally say no - it's not even in their codex!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vash113
You can do counts as but you must abide by the restrictions. You can't have an army using traits and still use the Special Characters or Units. Ultramarines aren't the only ones who get those characters and units, any vanilla army can pretty much make use of them as they can be "counts as" ultramarines and fluff wise name the characters something else. Wedge instead of Tigurius and Bigs instead of Cassius for example.

On another note what do you have against the Ultras fluff? They abide by the codex but they aren't boring, they do make alterations (as the presence of the Honor Guard and Nid Hunters shows) and they have some great Characters such as Calgar and Galatan. At face value the Ultras look very plain, but delve further into their fluff and a lot of character can come out. So if you haven't taken a look you might want to scratch more off the surface, its surprising what you will find in a background as diverse as that of 40k.
Well first off, I think traits owuld be fine. I wouldn't mess with any rules and give Tyranid Hunters some special trait that usually only applies to other squads. They'd be completely and utterly normal aside from the fact they aren't Ultramarines.

Second, well, it's as much the fluff. They're just so... average. Their color scheme is all over the codex to such a degree I'm just annoyed by it. I prefer my own chapter much more.

It's not ment to offend - It'd be nicer if the codex payed more attention to other chapters, and I probally wouldn't feel this way.


(Please do not double post, thanks - Dutch)
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Old 07 May 2007, 03:16   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ultramarine-only units used outside of Ultramarines?

Well, the point is that the Ultramarines ARE the definition of what it means to be a codex chapter. Just like the Space Wolves and Black Templars are pretty much the anti-thesis of being a codex chapter.

The boys from Macragge are used so much in the codex because 1) they are the most rigid adherents to the Codex Astartes (most of the time), and 2) their primarch wrote it. So, again, they define a codex chapter; naturally, they&#39;re the ones to promote "codexness" (did I just make up a word?). Hope that helps.

PS Vash, don&#39;t forget about Captains Ventris and Idaeus (both of 4th Company)! Both were known to bend the rules when they had to, making the sons of Guillman even more characterful.
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Old 07 May 2007, 06:26   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ultramarine-only units used outside of Ultramarines?

Droids_Rule there is a modify button in the upper right of your posts, double posting is in essence spam and against the rules so in future just modify your post and avoid double posting wherever possible.

As for traits they are not fine. The rules say that the Nid Hunters can be used in an Ultramarines army, any army with traits cannot be an Ultramarines army. "Counts as" only works when the rules are followed as they should be, if you wish to use any of the Ultramarines units or characters then you cannot use traits.

Ventris is a poorly done character and is generally held as a poor example of the Ultramarines. Idaeus however is a far better example. The Ultramarines may be all over the codex, but the Space Wolves are all over their codex, and the Black Templars all over theirs. The basic Marine Codex, is practically codex Ultramarines, since they are the primary codex chapter, however that doesn&#39;t mean they are devoid of character or speciality as their characters and units show. Also note that the Raven Guard and Imperial Fists possess characters in the codex as well and a number of other chapters are present in the codex. The Ultramarines however have a simple scheme and a lot of models GW already has painted. If you look carefully at the codex you will see that a lot of the pictures use the same models, once more GW is simply being cost efficient. Its cheaper to make a large force of one army and do multiple pictures of that instead of painting up a different army for every snap shot.
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Old 07 May 2007, 12:10   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ultramarine-only units used outside of Ultramarines?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Droids_Rule



(Please do not double post, thanks - Dutch)
Sorry about that. :-[ I haven&#39;t figured out how to out multiple quotes in one post. :-\
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Old 07 May 2007, 12:16   #10 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Ultramarine-only units used outside of Ultramarines?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vash113

As for traits they are not fine. The rules say that the Nid Hunters can be used in an Ultramarines army, any army with traits cannot be an Ultramarines army. "Counts as" only works when the rules are followed as they should be, if you wish to use any of the Ultramarines units or characters then you cannot use traits.
Well first off, I already said characters are not included in this post. Characters are characters - you can&#39;t have duplicates of them.

As for traits, I fail to see why it would be that much a problem. As long as no traits give any bonuses to the special units (which they don&#39;t) there shouldn&#39;t be any problems... Right? :-X


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vash113
Ventris is a poorly done character and is generally held as a poor example of the Ultramarines. Idaeus however is a far better example. The Ultramarines may be all over the codex, but the Space Wolves are all over their codex, and the Black Templars all over theirs. The basic Marine Codex, is practically codex Ultramarines, since they are the primary codex chapter, however that doesn&#39;t mean they are devoid of character or speciality as their characters and units show. Also note that the Raven Guard and Imperial Fists possess characters in the codex as well and a number of other chapters are present in the codex. The Ultramarines however have a simple scheme and a lot of models GW already has painted. If you look carefully at the codex you will see that a lot of the pictures use the same models, once more GW is simply being cost efficient. Its cheaper to make a large force of one army and do multiple pictures of that instead of painting up a different army for every snap shot.
I understand that. I know why GW did that, I know Ultramrines aren&#39;t a boring chapter. All I&#39;m saying is Ultramarines don&#39;t appeal to me. Neither do any of those other chapters in the Codex. That&#39;s why I made my own chapter!

(Yay! Multiple quotes in one post! ;D )

(Oh, darnit, I double-posted again. Is it possible to delete posts on this forum?)
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