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Space marines too strong?
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Old 10 Dec 2006, 15:57   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
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Default Space marines too strong?

does anyone else think that space marines are just too strong? I mean What other army has a basic troop choice with ws4 bs4 S4 T4 L8 and to top it all off, they have 3+ save! these guys arnt the elites. Like I said these guys are the regular troops. and the terminators have a 2+ save. no other army can even compare! (with the SMs I am counting Daemon hunters and Witch hunters) do you agree? disagree? let me know!
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Old 10 Dec 2006, 16:03   #2 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Space marines too strong?

what about necrons?

anyway, what other army has basic troops that cost 15 points each?
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Old 10 Dec 2006, 16:04   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Space marines too strong?

They are a good starter army for people who havn't done much with 40k thats why all the starters come with them.


I do Tau but the space marines I am working on I have made them more difficult for me by restricting myselft to only Pre-heresy units.
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Old 10 Dec 2006, 16:24   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Space marines too strong?

Erm, why are you counting Witchhunters for Space Marines? They don't have any marines in their list.
As to other lists to compare, Chaos, Necrons, and well, sisters of battle(witchhunters). Also as stated there is the countering fact that they do ahve a higher cost per model than any other army. I'd like you to find what army off the ones we have just covered has an elite troop model that costs more than some vehicles.

In either case, this comes very close to trolling. Asking this question on the Space marine board of all places?
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Old 10 Dec 2006, 16:50   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Space marines too strong?

Ok, I play Black Templar, that gives me the ability to put a lot of marines on the board. I do, in my 2000 point list, I have 77 marines on the board. If that was an all infantry IG, it would be... almost incalcuable.
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Old 10 Dec 2006, 16:55   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Space marines too strong?

I think they CAN be a lil unbalanced, but if the player of the marine army isn't out to win at all costs then it shouldn't be a problem. While i believe that some of the game mechanics definately work in the marines' favour, i think the biggest problem is the traits. Why? Freebies. If you weren't going to take allies or where you play doesnt allow them what kind of disadvantage is "We Stand Alone". The major disadvantages aren't too bad as they all have a nasty effect of some sort. It's the minors that cause trouble. Alot of the time marine players essentially get a "free" advantage by designing an army list around a few beneficial traits and then taking the disadvantages that have absolutely no effect on that list.

I mean what kind of disadvantage is "We Stand Alone", "Have Faith in Suspicion", "Die Standing" or "Have Pride in your Colours" if you're not going to use that stuff anyway? I don't mind them if it's part of your fluff, but if you just make a list and then take one of these drawbacks because you weren't going to use it anyway, then that's a problem

Always remember. Traits are to fluff out your chapter and make it unique, not to hone it into the ultimate tourney army
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Old 10 Dec 2006, 17:02   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Space marines too strong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Ead
Always remember. Traits are to fluff out your chapter and make it unique, not to hone it into the ultimate tourney army
I'll be honest, I'd really like to see someone actually use the traits to make a marine army more powerful. Only ones I've seen try were noobs and they gnerally are picked apart by everyone with or without the traits.
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Old 10 Dec 2006, 17:05   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Space marines too strong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aunvre
these guys arnt the elites. Like I said these guys are the regular troops.
Space Marines, or Adeptus Astares, cannot be compared in any way, shape, or form to 'regular troops'. Astares are gods of war, simply put. They are the elite of the Imperium; the process it takes to create even a single Marine is incredibly dangerous and time consuming.

And their abilities reflect the amount of effort it takes to make them battle-ready; fluffwise, a Marine can shrug of an incredible amount of trauma, from plasma shots to anti-tank missiles.

Show me another race who's soldiers take over decade to prepare for combat readiness, train for combat probably close to 18 hours a day, and treat incoming missiles and gunfire like spitballs. Found one yet, other than Chaos (who are Marines) or Necrons (who are robots)? No, you haven't, have you. Didn't think so.

That is why Marines have the statlines they do.
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Old 10 Dec 2006, 18:09   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Space marines too strong?

Heya,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aunvre
does anyone else think that space marines are just too strong?
Short answer. No.

Space Marines might be stronger then most other troops, but it's completely fair if you think about the points system. On page 13 of the 4th ed. Warhammer 40,000 rulebook it says the following: "For comparison, Space Marines are worth 15 points, and Termagants 7. This means that Space marines can be outnumbered by Termagants by at least two to one and still have an even chance of winning." This shows that while a Space Marine may be stronger then most other troops, it costs much more then them. Meaning that one Space Marine may be able to take on two Termagants, but it costs the same as them. So it's even.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aunvre
I mean What other army has a basic troop choice with ws4 bs4 S4 T4 L8 and to top it all off, they have 3+ save! these guys arnt the elites.
Necrons for one. Same with Grey Knights, and Chaos Space Marines. Even Battle Sisters can place among these armoured giants. And if you'll notice, the Space Marine codex already states that Adeptas Astartes Troops units are at a level of comparison with that of other armys' Elite choices. Nothing new.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiritbw
Erm, why are you counting Witchhunters for Space Marines? They don't have any marines in their list.
They can both induct, and join Space Marine units. So they have the chance to have Space Marines in their list.
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Old 10 Dec 2006, 20:20   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Space marines too strong?

I think any army with a 3+ save for the majority of its troops has a distinct advantage over other armies, irrespective of stat line and points cost. A model with a Ballistic Skill of four has a slightly better chance than of scoring a hit, than one with a Ballistic Skill of three, but the difference between a 3+ save and a 4+ save is massive. There are many weapons with AP4; the ubiquitous heavy bolter being the most prominent. I think the whole armour save system is flawed in this respect and that we'd probably be better off if all models had an Armour Value in a similar manner to vehicles (in addition to toughness).

So yeah, I think Space Marines are too good, and all-infantry Marine armies (while possibly fluffy) are way too powerful. They're a good army for new players, but once we get a better understanding of how to play, they're just too good and it's time to either dilute the pure killiness of your marine army with some 'luxury' units or start a more challenging army (first company armies included...very hard to play).
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