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first company question
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Old 19 Nov 2006, 16:02   #1 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default first company question

where is the first company list located? i've always wanted to do an all terminator force.
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Old 19 Nov 2006, 16:16   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: first company question

All "First Company" armies use the Deathwing rules in the Dark Angel codex.
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Old 20 Nov 2006, 08:36   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: first company question

Not true... GW fielded an Ultramarines First Company force.

Bascially, the way you do it is this:


All characters must be in Terminator Armour.

Terminators (both types) are Troops.

Land Raiders and Land Raider Crusaders are Heavy Support.

Dreadnoughts are Elite.


Voila! 1st Company list!



It's really the sort of force you just agree on beforehand with an opponent. For example, my Supernovas Chapter have virtually no Terminators, but are a very fast army. As such, their "1st Company" army would have Veterans as Troops, Veteran Bikers as Fast Attack (Bikes with a Veteran Skill, in short), Land Speeder Tornadoes, Typhoons and Tempests as Heavy Support, and leave Dreadnoughts in Elite. No other entries (bar HQ) are available.
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Old 20 Nov 2006, 14:14   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: first company question

for now, use the deathwing rules, though with the new codex, things might change.

as it is, to be legal, take 2 characters with terminator armour, 2 terminator command squads, 3 terminator elite squads and 2 minimised scout squads. fluff it out that the scouts have infiltrated deep behind enemy lines/into the heart of the enemy base with teleport homers and now call in the big guys to wreck stuff...

i don't like relying on "counts as" or "with your opponents consent" or "twisting the force org chart in illegal ways" because you might want to take the list to a tourney or something. play legal.
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Old 20 Nov 2006, 14:25   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: first company question

The reason I don't like your method, Deadnight, is it feels too akin to Powergaming.

I see a list with five Terminator squads and two minimised Scout Squads, and I think "what is he trying to pull?"

I see an all-Terminator army and I think "Cool, First Company list."

If you've got valid reason, then the rules can go hang; I was playing all-Stormtrooper armies long before the 4th-Edition Codex made it legal to do so.
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Old 20 Nov 2006, 16:59   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: first company question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wargamer
The reason I don't like your method, Deadnight, is it feels too akin to Powergaming.

I see a list with five Terminator squads and two minimised Scout Squads, and I think "what is he trying to pull?"

I see an all-Terminator army and I think "Cool, First Company list."

If you've got valid reason, then the rules can go hang; I was playing all-Stormtrooper armies long before the 4th-Edition Codex made it legal to do so.
indeed, and if these were based on the rules you gave in the IG forum, they were less than passable if you ask me.

what im doing isnt powergaming. like, im playing by the book and making a legal army. you're making stuff up on the spot, with "counts as", "opponents consent" and nothing is legal. that's not good enough. it smacks of making up rules on the spot. what i've done is the closest thing i can do to a first company within the rules, short of a deathwing list. heck, drop the scouts, take regular tac squads and paint em up as veterans, and you've got a first co. list.

anyway, think im powergaming, fine. ask me, "what are you trying to pull" and i'll simply say "i'm trying to do a first company force. i cant use deathwing rules as they're not deathwing. its an elite strike force, essentially. the story is the scouts sneaked into the heart of the enemy base and called in the terminators to kick ass."

and if you've a problem with that mate, with an elite army of a handful of models striking deep into the heart of their enemy, alone, cut off, with no support, then you're no 40k gamer
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Old 20 Nov 2006, 17:15   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: first company question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadnight
for now, use the deathwing rules, though with the new codex, things might change.

as it is, to be legal, take 2 characters with terminator armour, 2 terminator command squads, 3 terminator elite squads and 2 minimised scout squads. fluff it out that the scouts have infiltrated deep behind enemy lines/into the heart of the enemy base with teleport homers and now call in the big guys to wreck stuff...

i don't like relying on "counts as" or "with your opponents consent" or "twisting the force org chart in illegal ways" because you might want to take the list to a tourney or something. play legal.
If you're gonna do that, take Captain Lysander as one of those HQ choices. An Imperial Fists army has distinct advantages in launching a massive Terminator assault, and it's just so very fluffy. Despite what Deadnight says, you could still use the "Counts-as rule" in most tourneys if a legion of bright yellow marines is not for you. I expect it'd only be in the most strict tournaments that you'd only be allowed to use the Imperial Fist rules with an Imperial Fist army. Most competetive events go as far as to stipulate 'three colours minimum', so you probably shouldn't have any problems using a different rule set so long as your opponent knows you're using it.
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Old 20 Nov 2006, 17:17   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: first company question

Or if you don't fancy taking Lysander take the regular tac marines and give them infiltrate using the "See but Don't be Seen" Trait.

Then you have an all veteran army just like deadnight suggested. That'd actually be a really really cool force to see deployed, especially if all the marines were painted as veterans with the white helmets and so on.
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Old 20 Nov 2006, 21:31   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: first company question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wargamer
Not true... GW fielded an Ultramarines First Company force.

Bascially, the way you do it is this:


All characters must be in Terminator Armour.

Terminators (both types) are Troops.

Land Raiders and Land Raider Crusaders are Heavy Support.

Dreadnoughts are Elite.


Voila! 1st Company list!



It's really the sort of force you just agree on beforehand with an opponent. For example, my Supernovas Chapter have virtually no Terminators, but are a very fast army. As such, their "1st Company" army would have Veterans as Troops, Veteran Bikers as Fast Attack (Bikes with a Veteran Skill, in short), Land Speeder Tornadoes, Typhoons and Tempests as Heavy Support, and leave Dreadnoughts in Elite. No other entries (bar HQ) are available.
You can do that but nevertheless that is not legal. Maybe thats how you do it Wargamer but the only legal way to do a truly all Terminator force is to use the Deathwing rules. You can do mostly terminators with a couple small tac or scout squads but thats not completely all terminators.

Besides GW does a lot of odd things and breaks many of their rules for the sake of show. Such as in the WD battle report showcasing the Black Templars. Rules were ignored just so the fancy looking command unit could stay perched on their ledge and the opponents army was rediculous, the rules were savaged just to make a more "epic" tale for the battle report. GW does such things quite a bit from what I have seen, GW doing something funky with the rules isnt a very solid justification to do so yourself.

House Rules are always there though, you can do whatever you wish with your own private gaming.
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Old 22 Nov 2006, 14:44   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: first company question

I don't really see a problem with doing a counts as army using the deathwing rules. The only real thing that deathwing have to take that other termie armies don't is stubborn, and if you think about it you could always excuse that away... something like being proud of being in the first company or realizing the importance of the suits you are wearing so not running from opponents fire.

As for the Ultra wing that they used in that white dwarf, they technically only cheated 2 things. First they used a special character, which technically I wouldn't have a problem with, heck it even makes the battle that more fluffy. And fluffy battles are almost always a good thing. The second cheat, and this is the one that I'm a little more severe about is that they didn't pay for the stubborn ability. If they had just wanted to show off the terminators (which was the whole reason for that particular battle report) then why would it have been such a big deal to pay a couple of measly points per model?

A basic first company run down is very much like what wargamer said. Actually the only thing he sorta missed ( I say sorta because technically you could label this under characters) is that techmarines can be taken as an elite choice, and that terminators can also be fast, heavies and elites in a first company (Deathwing) army.

As for the Lysanderwing, while being very effective, it doesn't truly convey the first company feel. Sure you are getting to field a large number of terminators, but you have to buy at least 2 troop choices still, neither of which are veteran units. So you are either stealing troops from companies 2-7 or are stealing scouts from company 10. Not exactly an all 1st company list. Theres also the loss of dreadnoughts, but thats less important.
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