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Baal Predator and Furioso Dreadnought usage
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Old 29 Oct 2006, 07:37   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Baal Predator and Furioso Dreadnought usage

I was just wondering about who can use the Baal Predator and Furioso Dreadnought. IA says that only Blood Angel armies (and their successors) can use them. However this puts forward two good arguments. What if the army was not of a chapter offically recognized as a Blood Angels successor chapter?

on one side, if the chapter was not GW official, people would go around using them will nilly, e.g. an Ultramarines blue SMurfs with a Baal predator, I mean really come on. You know what I mean, just pulling the words "they are a Blood Angels Successor Chapter" out of a hat so you can use a Baal Pred and a Furioso Dread is definitely not on.

but alternatively: if the gamer had created the chapter to be a Blood Angels successor chapter, in all honesty made the fluff of his army to be a blood angel successor, how can you deny them their right to a Ball Pred and the Furioso dread (should they wish it).

so can you or can you not take a Ball Pred and Furioso Dread in a non GW recognized Blood Angels Successor Chapter?
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Old 29 Oct 2006, 08:54   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Baal Predator and Furioso Dreadnought usage

Of course you can. It&#39;s commonly known as the &#39;counts-as&#39; rule. It&#39;s by this means you can make some interesting custom chapters. You just can&#39;t pic and mix from such chapter special rules, that&#39;s all. So that means you can&#39;t have both Furioso Dreadnoughts and Blood Claw packs. If you make use of any Blood Angels special, you&#39;ve also got to follow the rest of the blood angels rules too, even the ones you don&#39;t like.

There&#39;s no difference between a player calling his Ultramarines &#39;Blood Angels&#39; than there is a player calling his unpainted miniatures Blood Angels! It&#39;d be pretty unfair on the people who&#39;d actually bothered to pick up a paintbrush if only those that hadn&#39;t could call their miniatures whatever they wanted!
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Old 29 Oct 2006, 10:03   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Baal Predator and Furioso Dreadnought usage

I am trying to design a chapter, obviously a BA successor, They had their gene edited to try and get rid of the bad bits etc. it was successful, the same thing happened to another chapter, I forgot the name though. So it is a traits army that will be a BA successor and as such can use the Baal Pred and Furioso Dreadnought.
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Old 29 Oct 2006, 12:02   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Baal Predator and Furioso Dreadnought usage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shas O Dalyth Montau
I am trying to design a chapter, obviously a BA successor, They had their gene edited to try and get rid of the bad bits etc. it was successful, the same thing happened to another chapter, I forgot the name though. So it is a traits army that will be a BA successor and as such can use the Baal Pred and Furioso Dreadnought.
Oooo...now that&#39;s just plain cheating. I want a Baal Predator for My Imperial Fists too, but you can&#39;t just steal the bits you like from different Codexes and not take the drawbacks and other bits you&#39;re not so keen on! That&#39;s not legal in the truest sense, but if your opponent is happy for you to field a Baal Predator and Furioso Dreadnought in an otherwise vanilla army, then you&#39;ve got no probs. If you do it without your opponent&#39;s permission however, don&#39;t be surprised when they throw a tantrum or suddenly include a Genestealer brood in their Imperial Guard armoured company.

Besides, I&#39;ve never heard of a Blood Angels successor finding a cure for the Black Rage...the Blood Angels have been searching for over ten millenia!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel_Sanders
When all was finished, the battlefield was a smoking crater. UDC, Valoran, US Army, Tau, the Nazis, a random pirate ship, and a bunch of ninjas, all were enemies to the Vulture. All were turned into scrap metal. Or plastic. Depends which game system you play.
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Old 29 Oct 2006, 13:18   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Baal Predator and Furioso Dreadnought usage

It would actually be worth it to you to play the blood angels. If you know what your doing then their few downsides aren&#39;t downsides anymore.

Besides, they are the only army that can truly do the castle maneuver (warning, very costly both in points and models, and your opponent will know what to look for the next time you play him).

simply put, for your 3 elites take a techmarine with 4 servitors(the ones that help him fix vehicles) and 2 furioso dreadnoughts. For your heavies take 2 baal predators and a regular dreadnought. Now during deployment place the 2 baal predators next to each other with about over an inch between. then place the regular dreadnought centered in front of the 2 baals. Place both the Furiosos behind the predators and the techmarine and his servitors in between.

If you did it right it should look kind of like this:

xx
xx
bbbobbb
bbbTbbb
bbbobbb
bbbobbb
ff o ff
ff ff

x: dreadnought
b: Baal Predator
o: servitor
T: techmarine
f: furioso dreadnought

(note, I did try to take size into consideration)

now what this does is every turn you have 9 assault cannon shots, 8 of which are twin linked. Because the techmarine is touching both of the predators he can fix either one of them, meaning that your opponent literally has to blow them up to stop it. The dreadnought in front is there for 2 reasons, 1st to protect the techmarine by blocking line of sight and secondly to protect the predators as your opponent will have to take a ld test to target them.

The 2 Furioso&#39;s are there to protect the weaker rear armor of the predators and counter charge those units that would try to grenade the rear. Because honestly you would literally have to be suicidal to want to charge a Furioso dreadnought.

The only things you have to take into consideration with this tactic is a: how will the blood rage affect it ( if one peice rages, then just move every peice. their firing effectiveness won&#39;t be changed) b: what if my opponent has a counter for it (the first time your opponent sees it they won&#39;t, after that start laughing as now he is over extending himself to destroy the castle, while leaving the rest of your army alone) c: what about crew shaken/stunned, thats a turn without shooting (its called power of the machine spirit )

While it is possible to do the castle with a vanilla army (actually you lose a lot of the effectiveness as you have to take the trait that allows for dreads as both heavies and elites, and the guns on your preds just aren&#39;t as effective) it is not in any other chapter. Sorry but space wolves, dark angels :&#39;( and black templar just don&#39;t have the necesarry peices.

One last thing, this is an expensive tactic. I think points wise its about 600-700 pts, so I would not under any circumstances use it in a 1000 or 1500 pt game. We are definitely talking at least 1850 and even then I would be leary...


(Nice stuff = +1 Karma - Stam )
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Old 29 Oct 2006, 15:19   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Baal Predator and Furioso Dreadnought usage

Blood Angel successor just means that they are a "counts as" blood angels. In other words they are blood angels, just painted differently. That means that you must take all the Blood Angel rules. For instance the Flesh Tearers and Angels Sanguine are both basically Blood Angels they just have different paint schemes and slightly different fluff.

Also for the fluff of your army note that the Blood Angels have been searching zelously for a cure for ten thousand years. So its really not going to be generally accepted that a successor chapter just goes poof and has it gone. While there are very, very broad avenues to do literally whatever you want in most of the fluff it is always better to keep the cannon fluff in mind and not change it. Finding gaps in the written fluff to add whatever is fine but changing something so central as the Black Rage will likely not go down well with many people. You can of course do whatever its not like your going to get smacked but people will generally accept fluff better if it takes in mind the paramaters set by the cannon fluff. For instance it makes more sense for me to say that my Tau cadre was attacked by raiding orks while scouting in the Sarcassa system than to say they clashed with Ulthwe craftworld outside the eye of terror.

Back to the rules it simply comes down to if you want to use the Baal and Furioso you must use the Blood Angels rules to keep with the rules. You can paint the blood angels however you like but you must use the BA rules and all of them. However just as the fluff is open for change in unofficial games you can do whatever you like as long as you get your opponents permission to do so which includes using things like Forgeworld units, VDR vehicles etc.
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Old 30 Oct 2006, 19:00   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Baal Predator and Furioso Dreadnought usage

The blood angels did find a cure however the rules for them are part of a cursed chapter. they died their hearts are weak and tend to bleed under pressure.

The only other way you could get a baal preaditor is to pay a heafty price and make one using the vdr rules.

KQD
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Old 02 Nov 2006, 05:42   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Baal Predator and Furioso Dreadnought usage

as I said in my first post though, there are points for both sides of the argument. And also as I said in IA it wasn&#39;t specific as to whether it must use BA codex rules, it merely stated that a successor could take such things, and I plan for mine to be.

I&#39;ll give a quick explanation as to what my chapter is. and before you immediately start posting about how much fluff I&#39;ve bent and/or broken (I can work around that and or edit my fluff slightly), I don&#39;t know what inter-chapter or inter-organisation tiffs may exist to conflict with my ideas for the chapter, just give it a go, besides more radical things have been suggested in the past.

After the split of the great legions, about a company of troops and a large shipment of geneseed was sent to the Adeptus Mechanicus Genetors (ie mechanicus geneseed watchers). The Genetors were given the task of trying to do their best at curing the geneseed of the Black Rage and Red Thirst, or at least to do their best to "fix" it or play it down and then raise the chapter to strength through its fledgeling years. After centuries of research, testing, gene splicing and experimental mixing with chapters they considered perfect, ideal and powerful enough to overcome the Rage and Thirst (naturally this meant that the Iron Hands were included a lot), a reasonably sound geneseed was produced, and though the Black Rage and Red Thirst was not (and likely cannot be) completely eradicated, the Mechanicus and the powers that be declared the experiment a success, and the Mechanicus were given the go-ahead to begin the Chapters beginning. So the Chapter evolved and the geneseed was gradually improved (but never completely fixed). It has been known for marines of this chapter to show tendencies of other chapters, like replacing limbs and body parts with bionical ones, believing their flesh weak with the Black Rage and Red Thirst (proving Iron Hands gene inclusions), Stubbornness has also showed. In keeping with the Sanguinary Priests of the Blood Angels (and the fact that things still needed an eye on), the Chapter has a great number of Aothecaries as such they have the Purity above all trait. As a favoured Chapter of the Adeptus Mechanicus (and in return for doing jobs for them), and also as a personal like inherited from their "creators", they have access to a great amount of ancient technology and the like, so they also have the Scions of Mars trait. Because of their ancestry with an ancient chapter (and the inclusion of the genes of stubborn chapters), they have the Death before Dishonour trait/disadvantage. I also gave them the Eye to eye trait/disadvantage, because none of the others fitted my views of them.

I still haven&#39;t got a name for them yet, I was thinking of the Iron Angles, but I bet thats already been done. I&#39;ve probably ommitted a couple of things but, I"m kinda tire this arvo.

So I still want to find out whether there is a legal way for my chapter to field the Baal Predator and Furioso Dreadnought as I feel I have a legitimat BA chapter.
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Old 02 Nov 2006, 16:46   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Baal Predator and Furioso Dreadnought usage

As we&#39;ve already said, no - There is no legal way you can field anything unique to the Blood Angels or successor chapters and use the traits system to create your own chapter. That&#39;s having the best of both worlds!

But that certainly shouldn&#39;t stop you. If you think these vehicles belong in your chapter, but the other advantages/disadvantages of the Blood Angels have no place, then use them! We&#39;re allowed to be creative, it&#39;s encouraged, and if the traits system isn&#39;t enough then bend the rules to suit your chapter. Such rules exist only to level the playing field for all involved. Provided you&#39;ve got your opponent&#39;s permission, you can do anything. But, be under no illusion, it is in violation of the rules and it won&#39;t be tournament legal.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel_Sanders
When all was finished, the battlefield was a smoking crater. UDC, Valoran, US Army, Tau, the Nazis, a random pirate ship, and a bunch of ninjas, all were enemies to the Vulture. All were turned into scrap metal. Or plastic. Depends which game system you play.
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Old 03 Nov 2006, 07:27   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Baal Predator and Furioso Dreadnought usage

Thanks for sticking with it guys, I can be stubborn if I really want things my way.

But yeah as you say, the game is for fun, and such things are only illegal without opponents permission and in tournaments. so yes...

thanks again!
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