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Litanies of Hate & Tyrannic War Veteran Krak Grenades
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Old 25 Oct 2006, 07:58   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Litanies of Hate & Tyrannic War Veteran Krak Grenades

So a Chaplain's Litanies of Hate let me re-roll failed to-hit rolls on the charge.

Am I correct in reading that this applies to Tyrannic War Veterans and their Krak Grenade attack?

The Litanies of Hate rule appears to be pretty general, and the Krak Grenade thing with the Tyrannic Vets seems like a cc attack that can work with Litanies of Hate, even if it's a 6 to hit for non-Preferred Enemies.

Maybe it's silly to do, but a couple S6 hits that ignore armour saves seems like something I might want to try to re-roll from time to time...

I'm just in an Ultramarines mood, I'm looking at how to mess around with Tyrannic War Vets (they are so inexpensive for what they've got), and I might even want to field Cassius with 1st Company Ultramarines in friendlies from fluffy reasons.
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Old 25 Oct 2006, 09:12   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Litanies of Hate & Tyrannic War Veteran Krak Grenades

While I can't answer your question that is a very scary concept. While I do think it's a bit of a stretch on the rules, I wouldn't contest it.
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Old 25 Oct 2006, 11:54   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Litanies of Hate & Tyrannic War Veteran Krak Grenades

Just had a flick though my space codex and I believe the answer is yes, you can do that. Under the Krak Grenades special rules it states '...When in close combat, they can therefore choose to use krak grenades as a close combat weapon...'

The Litanies of Hate special rule also states that all failed to hit rolls can be re-rolled.

Whilst this is particularly scary and I am not a big fan of powerplay I think this quite characterful; especially if the squad in mention is lead by Chaplain Cassius...

I hope that helps

Cheers,

El
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Old 25 Oct 2006, 19:13   #4 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Litanies of Hate & Tyrannic War Veteran Krak Grenades

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Mariachi
Whilst this is particularly scary and I am not a big fan of powerplay I think this quite characterful; especially if the squad in mention is lead by Chaplain Cassius...
Cool. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't applying the rules unfairly, especially since some things are not always clear with these special characters & units (like Chief Librarian Tigurius' Hood of Hellfire, and how it interacts with Fear of the Darkness... GW seems to say it's legit, but I can see why it would be horribly broken with some armies)

While I was originally messing around with ideas for a generic Reclusiarch, using Chaplain Cassius and 1st Company Ultramarines is just too cool to pass up... even if, points-wise/efficiency-wise, Cassius is not "very good" compared to a tooled up Master of Sanctity or Reclusiarch in a proper Assault config.

Maybe the cost of Cassius would make up for the potential for S6, armour-ignoring insanity in a charge... if I wanted to do this with a cheapie Ultramarines Reclusiarch, it could be kind of sick (with some lucky rolls & re-rolls).
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Old 25 Oct 2006, 21:58   #5 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Litanies of Hate & Tyrannic War Veteran Krak Grenades

You know, while the addition of a Chaplain to negate the drawbacks is a good idea, this isn't actually all that effective. Against a horde of Tyranid gribblies, you're obviously better off with normal attacks, but even against MEQs you're going to be slightly more effective with your standard attacks! This special ability is designed to be used against big Tyranid nasties, and that's exactly what it's best at! Although, if combat drags on to a second round, definately switch to krak grenades because, without the charge bonus, normal attacks can't hold a candle to krak grenades.

The table below compares the two types of attack made against a non-preferred enemy of equal weapon skill, as led by a chaplain:


[table]

[tr][td][size=12pt]Target stats [/size][/td][td][size=12pt] 1 X Krak grenade [/size][/td][td][size=12pt] 2 X Normal attacks[/size][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]T:8-9 / Sv:2+ [/td][td]5%[/td][td]0%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]T:8-9 / Sv:3+ [/td][td]5%[/td][td]0%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]T:8-9 / Sv:4+ [/td][td]5%[/td][td]0%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]T:8-9 / Sv:5+ [/td][td]5%[/td][td]0%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]T:8-9 / Sv:6+ [/td][td]5%[/td][td]0%[/td][/tr]

[tr][td]-------------[/td][td]-------------[/td][td]-------------[/td][/tr]

[tr][td]T:7 / Sv:2+ [/td][td]10%[/td][td]5%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]T:7 / Sv:3+ [/td][td]10%[/td][td]10%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]T:7 / Sv:4+ [/td][td]10%[/td][td]15%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]T:7 / Sv:5+ [/td][td]10%[/td][td]20%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]T:7 / Sv:6+ [/td][td]10%[/td][td]25%[/td][/tr]

[tr][td]-------------[/td][td]-------------[/td][td]-------------[/td][/tr]

[tr][td]T:6 / Sv:2+ [/td][td]15%[/td][td]5%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]T:6 / Sv:3+ [/td][td]15%[/td][td]10%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]T:6 / Sv:4+ [/td][td]15%[/td][td]15%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]T:6 / Sv:5+ [/td][td]15%[/td][td]20%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]T:6 / Sv:6+ [/td][td]15%[/td][td]25%[/td][/tr]

[tr][td]-------------[/td][td]-------------[/td][td]-------------[/td][/tr]

[tr][td]T:5 / Sv:2+ [/td][td]20%[/td][td]10%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]T:5 / Sv:3+ [/td][td]20%[/td][td]20%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]T:5 / Sv:4+ [/td][td]20%[/td][td]30%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]T:5 / Sv:5+ [/td][td]20%[/td][td]40%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]T:5 / Sv:6+ [/td][td]20%[/td][td]49%[/td][/tr]

[tr][td]-------------[/td][td]-------------[/td][td]-------------[/td][/tr]

[tr][td]T:4 / Sv:2+ [/td][td]25%[/td][td]15%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]T:4 / Sv:3+ [/td][td]25%[/td][td]30%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]T:4 / Sv:4+ [/td][td]25%[/td][td]44%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]T:4 / Sv:5+ [/td][td]25%[/td][td]59%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]T:4 / Sv:6+ [/td][td]25%[/td][td]74%[/td][/tr]

[tr][td]-------------[/td][td]-------------[/td][td]-------------[/td][/tr]

[tr][td]T:3 / Sv:2+ [/td][td]25%[/td][td]20%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]T:3 / Sv:3+ [/td][td]25%[/td][td]40%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]T:3 / Sv:4+ [/td][td]25%[/td][td]59%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]T:3 / Sv:5+ [/td][td]25%[/td][td]79%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]T:3 / Sv:6+ [/td][td]25%[/td][td]99%[/td][/tr]

[/table]

As you can see, Krak grenades are equalled or outperformed against everything but the highest armour saves, so I recommend you use them only against such enemies, or baddies too tough for conventional attacks, and in place of normal attacks in subsequent rounds of close combat.
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Old 25 Oct 2006, 23:31   #6 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Litanies of Hate & Tyrannic War Veteran Krak Grenades

Thanks for the analysis. Aside from the no-brainer choices like Hive Tyrants (so Tyrants are now upgrade characters in a unit with Tyrant Guard? >), I was thinking about oh-so-tooled-up Chaos Daemon Princes & how some players like to run them.

However, throwing Krak Grenades at regular Chaos Marines also crossed my mind... so this analysis definitely is useful.
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Old 25 Oct 2006, 23:43   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Litanies of Hate & Tyrannic War Veteran Krak Grenades

Remember, Tyrants can't be targeted due to Shield wall and Preferred Enemy does not work on Monstrous Creatures. So krak grenades are only really useful against Warriors, Lictors, Raveners, etc.
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Old 26 Oct 2006, 00:46   #8 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Litanies of Hate & Tyrannic War Veteran Krak Grenades

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abael
Remember, Tyrants can't be targeted due to Shield wall and Preferred Enemy does not work on Monstrous Creatures. So krak grenades are only really useful against Warriors, Lictors, Raveners, etc.
Yes, but Tyrants in groups with Tyrant Guard are "Upgrade Characters for a Tyrant Guard unit", according to the Tyranid FAQ... and Tyrant Guard aren't ICs or TMCs (thus can be hit by Preferred Enemy), which is what I'm getting at.

Right or wrong (the Tyranid FAQ is just kind of wacky), taking Tyrant Guard seems like a liability in this one instance... although generally it's amazing to have some Tyrant Guard on a walking Tyrant.

Statistically, from Tom's analysis, it's good to throw Krak Grenades at any type of Tyrant anyway... they've got the better WS and better Toughness (vs the strength stat of the basic Space Marine), so a S6 Krak Grenade that bypasses the Tyrant's armour save is just amazing.

/not really trying to weasel out more rules for Cassius & 1st Company here... I like Tyranids as well, and knowing what Tyrannic War Vets can do (in the light of the FAQs) is helpful.
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Old 26 Oct 2006, 07:35   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Litanies of Hate & Tyrannic War Veteran Krak Grenades

In reference to Cassius i'm a bit saddened to see they haven't cleared him up in the Space FAQ.

First of all, does he only have 2 wounds? Normally a Master of Sanctity (which he is) has 3; however because of his other special rules and the fact that he's also been horrifically wounded in the past maybe having 2 wounds is correct...

However, what about his weapons? The codex and the Cassius model came out at the same time. The model is equipped with a combi-flamer where as in the codex he only has a bolt pistol. Normally I know that the codex always takes preference but I want to know if he actually is supposed to have a bolt pistol and the scupltor just got it wrong? (Afterall a combi-flamer is much more in character for a person such as Cassius).

Regards,

El
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Old 26 Oct 2006, 17:52   #10 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Litanies of Hate & Tyrannic War Veteran Krak Grenades

AND the Ld9 for Cassius also seems like a Reclusiarch statline rather than a Master of Sanctity.

How do you lose 1 Ld?

Maybe he doesn't shower much because of his bionics, and the other Space Marines make jokes about the "Cassius funk" behind his back?
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