Tau Empire Codex 2013 | Army Builder Program
Dark Angels Codex 2013
Chaos Daemons Codex 2013
Chaos Space Marines Codex 2012

Warhammer 40k Forum Tau Online

 

Warhammer 40K Forum

Tactica: Hidden Ordanance
Reply
Old 28 Sep 2006, 21:06   #1 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Virginia
Posts: 8,194
Send a message via AIM to Vash113 Send a message via Yahoo to Vash113
Default Tactica: Hidden Ordanance

[size=15pt]Tactica: Hidden Ordanance[/size]

Introduction:

We all have seen it I am sure. The Bassalisk, Leman Russ, Defiler, Whirlwind etc sat behind a large bit of terrain at the back of the enemies army almost impossible to get at with conventional methods raining death on your squads. All have something to fear from this, high strength means hits easily wound and a number of such hidden units shots are ap3, scary to even marines.

So I have decided to try my hand at writing a tactica for Marines for a change. Instead of the usual that I write about killing marines.

Now for starters there are a few ways to get at those opponents and each has their benefits. But all of them have one task. To get at that sneaky enemy vehicle or position pounding your army out of sight. This is conventionally some ordanance carrying vehicle but can also be Eldar craft with CTM, warp spiders or even Tau Battlesuits or tanks. However no matter what it is one fact remains, its pounding your forces and is always out of sight when its your turn to try at retribution.

There are however some very nice methods of dealing with those troublesome units so lets take a look at them.

The Solutions:

Terminators
Pros: Deep Striking Terminators with assault cannons can chew through even Land Raiders. Tough to take return fire and well armed they can mow down infantry positions and blow up a target vehicle or squadron with a good chance of success.
Cons: You cant be very sure of when these guys will arrive and unless using a teleport homer they are in danger of scattering and dying. As the target will usually be hidden in a corner behind terrain the possibilities of instant death by falling into terrain or off the board are all too present.

Veterans
Pros: These guys can take infiltrators or tank hunters and can drop in with a drop pod or infiltrate forward and can pack grenades, power fists and melta guns for dealing with that armor aswell as cc power to chew through say a group of mortar teams.
Cons: Armor, these guys are not as heavily armored as Terminators and lack invulnerable saves. Add to that their weapons that actually deal with armor while there are limited and not nearly as multi shot as assault cannons.

Dreadnaughts
Pros: Drop podding in a Dreadnaught with any mix of the assault cannon, missil launcher, and twin linked lascannon is sure to do some damage to whatever it targets and the drop pod is safer than Terminators.
Cons: There is a good chance however that the Dreadnaught will scatter too far away to shoot its target or get to it and of course now your dreadnaught (always fairly vulnerable as many marine players know) is way out in a forward position and with plenty of enemies around.

Tactical Marines
Pros: The options for these guys is many indeed especially with the traits you have everything from two assault weapons to infiltration and many others besides. Some geared towards taking out tanks.
Cons: Getting these guys there will certainly be a problem, even infiltrating the likelyhood of getting close is not great and Tactical marines, like the Veterans, are not that tough or numerous. If you commit too many disaster is likely and too few they wont succeed. There are certainly better options than the Tactical Marines for this job.

Scouts
Pros: Cheap, infiltration capable, can take a heavy bolter or missil launcher for dealing with infantry or vehicles plus they move through cover well.
Cons: Very lightly armored and they just dont have the weapons options or speed once infiltrated to get to grips with their target who is likely well hidden from even infiltration.

Assault Marines
Pros: Power Fist sergeant, plasma pistols and melta bombs make these guys great for rushing in to deal with enemy armor. They move fast and are well armed. Even a squadron of skimmers has much to fear from them. With as many as 3 plasma pistol shots on the move, then a charge with melta bombs and power fist attacks an entire squadron can crash quickly and there are many chances of punching the high armor of a Leman Russ or Defiler with upgrades.
Cons: Expencive and few in number they can also crash and die if they land in terrain and are subject to the same ordanance that comes raining down on your forces. They can also be locked in close combat and pulled down in a prolonged engagement or slaughtered by a more dedicated assault unit such as khorn berserkers before they ever reach their target.

Land Speeders
Pros: These have a multitude of options and can take weapons such as multi meltas and assault cannon and heavy bolters aswell as even missil launchers. They are fast and skimmers so they can speed over terrain, have armor to save them from quite a bit of small arms fire, cant be locked in close combat and can deal with both infantry and armor.
Cons: Not heavily armored they could easily go down to dedicated fire, plus they could always crash into terrain if they are unlucky. For a skimmer moving fast immobolization is a firey death.

Bike Squadrons
Pros: With up to two melta guns, a power fist and a multi melta aswell as the ability to turbo charge that even gains them an invulnerable save and higher toughness they are not only durable but pack enough punch to tear through infantry and armor.
Cons: Few in number and not cheap they can suffer when trying to pass through terrain and like the assault marines can be cought in close combat but with an assault bike are even more expencive.

Whirlwind
Pros: Indirect fire like whatever is shooting at you it does not have to get close. Especially if you are facing enemy infantry, such as mortar teams, that blast weapon could wreak havoc on the enemy raining shells on your lines.
Cons: If the center of the Ordanance is not over the target its strength is halved and your wasting a blast weapon on a vehicle.

Land Raider
Pros: Heavily armed and armored, the Land Raider Crusader especially, you could use this vehicle to run the gauntlet of enemy fire and get at that hidden foe.
Cons: Expencive and running the gauntlet is in general a bad, bad idea as many times you wont make it even with AV14.

Conclusion

There are many ways marines can get at hidden foes. However from the list of likely candidates I will select five for major consideration and they are as follows and I will explain why:

Terminators
-They have the arms and armor to do the job. While targeting well hidden vehicles and mortar teams may not be the best idea not all enemies will be hidden that well as things like Battlesuits and warp spiders will be using whatever cover they have and by simply eliminating that cover the Terminators can flush them out to be shot or assaulted by other units in your army or shoot them to pieces. Teleporting is however always a risk so use with caution.

Dreadnaughts
-The drop pod is a good reliable way of getting the Dread in there safely and has a good chance putting a bit of LOS blocking cover where you want. The Dreadnaught is also very heavily armed for dealing with the foe of your choice and with a nice drop you could even bring a heavy flamer and assault cannon to bear on a nice hidden infantry target and destroy it. This can be especially devastating against hidden infantry units, cover using infantry (such as Warp Spiders and Battlesuits) and can even flush out ambush units aswell as taking out hidden Ordanance with a bit more safety than the Terminators can manage. However the Dread will likely be a one hit wonder and face retribution and near sure destruction when your opponents next turn comes so chose a target that will earn the Dreads points back in one blast if you can.

Assault Marines
-These guys have the speed to get where they need to go reliably and can stay behind cover doing it. Ordanance is always a problem but they can sitll take it out if you need to and they can deal with other hidden threats aswell that the rest of your army cannot get to. They only have power armor though so they cannot do everything and careful use is required. They are like a fine arrow, aim carefully and fire when the time is right or otherwise they can prove useless.

Land Speeders
-Speed and durability these can get to the threat and neutralize it quickly and efficiently by as soon as turn 2. They are also not that expencive compared to many other options and once their main target is destroyed have a good likelyhood and armament to move on and deal with something else so their use continues once they achieve their goal where the Dread can be destroyed, the Assault Marines find themselves far from the action and Terminators blanketed by an unrelenting storm of fire and fall.

Bike Squadrons
-Fast and durable like the Land Speeders they also pack nice weaponry. They are expencive though fully loaded and can be cought in cc. They are though a good and fast though, as fast as Land Speeders and do not suffer from being shaken and getting their weapons destroyed which could leave the Land Speeders useless. But they do suffer cassualties and could be pinned. A good alternative to Land Speeders for those armies who are limited in their choices of such units but they are not perfect.

Therefore in short the Marines have a great many options for dealing with hidden units. Chosen with care and used correctly there is nowhere to hide for the enemies of the Emperor.

I hope this has proved useful for those of you who encounter this all too common tactical problem.
__________________



Vash113 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28 Sep 2006, 22:49   #2 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hertford, UK
Posts: 5,086
Default Re: Tactica: Hidden Ordanance

Some pretty good suggestions there. Termies also have chainfists if assault cannons don't cut the mustard in two turns of shooting...not likely, but never underestimate the chainfist, it's utterly devastating.

I'm unclear on how you use the Vindicator though. If we're talking about an enemy artillery unit buried in cover then you'll have to drive all the way up table to get line of sight, same as anything else. Aren't you talking about units that can take it out without having to do that?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel_Sanders
When all was finished, the battlefield was a smoking crater. UDC, Valoran, US Army, Tau, the Nazis, a random pirate ship, and a bunch of ninjas, all were enemies to the Vulture. All were turned into scrap metal. Or plastic. Depends which game system you play.
Tom Norman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28 Sep 2006, 23:30   #3 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Virginia
Posts: 8,194
Send a message via AIM to Vash113 Send a message via Yahoo to Vash113
Default Re: Tactica: Hidden Ordanance

Ah right I forgot to specify with the Vindicator. Some people use it for the task because of its high strength, low ap weapon to do the most damage to an irritating unit but yes it does have to drive up and get into LOS. I included it because I have seen it used to hunt down such enemy units but it is really not a great idea to do that. Some people mistake its ordanance weapon as being capable to indirect fire but its not a guess weapon so it cannot and needs line of sight if I am remembering the rules correctly. I just forgot that while rushing and included it.

Ill just go remove it as it really should not be used for the job.
__________________



Vash113 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29 Sep 2006, 01:00   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Home
Posts: 1,492
Default Re: Tactica: Hidden Ordanance

You list the leman russ as an indirect fire weapon???

Oh, and you left out my favorite method of dealing with these bothersome war machines:

scouts with teleport homer infiltrating, then moving through cover, bringing in:

a) assault terminators with pinpoint precision out of LOS of the enemy, but close enough to charge them with a couple thunderhammers when they are allowed to move.

/edit/ This also neatly puts a nasty assault unit in the enemy's rear area, forcing him to start running with his heavy weapons squads to avoid being charged, and so on./end edit/

b) Shooty terminators with a pair of assault cannons and tank hunters, again with pinpoint precision, landing where they have a flank shot the turn they arrive.
__________________
Due to an error in translation, the isolated colony of T'ves'kal'dai mistakenly worshiped the greater goose for seven generations. Reeducation efforts continue.

Quote:
"Cheese for the cheese god! More wins for Pwn!"
march10k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29 Sep 2006, 01:03   #5 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Virginia
Posts: 8,194
Send a message via AIM to Vash113 Send a message via Yahoo to Vash113
Default Re: Tactica: Hidden Ordanance

Ive seen Leman Russ tanks with armament capable of indirect fire. There are a great many variants of the Russ and Im fairly sure some of them can indirect fire but I lack the Imperial Guard codex and IA to check.

__________________



Vash113 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29 Sep 2006, 01:18   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Home
Posts: 1,492
Default Re: Tactica: Hidden Ordanance

Nope. IG was my first army. There may be some obscure forgeworld variant of the russ that can fire indirectly, but not in the codex
__________________
Due to an error in translation, the isolated colony of T'ves'kal'dai mistakenly worshiped the greater goose for seven generations. Reeducation efforts continue.

Quote:
"Cheese for the cheese god! More wins for Pwn!"
march10k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29 Sep 2006, 01:27   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern Georgia
Posts: 218
Default Re: Tactica: Hidden Ordanance

You completely blew off tactical squads :'( for tank hunting yet kept the Dreads and Terms... Before I shifted gears and headed towards the =I= I used a pair of 5 man tac squads (multi and standard melta's) deployed via pod for tank smacking to great effect. Even if the unit is stuck near a corner with terrain out in front you can usually lay a pod down right along side them (pods don't go smush on a bad scatter). As for cost, the tac squad is cheaper than any of the other options albeit the Vet squad isn't much more expensive but does eat a elite slot.

Just wanted to add my thoughts sense I seem to approach AT in a very unusual way
__________________
Also, after the game, find his mini case and dump the contents into a grinder/shredder and then put what's left into a shaker. It goes great on pasta, pizza, nachos, etc., just like all other forms of cheese. - xShaperx
Morgue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29 Sep 2006, 03:27   #8 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Virginia
Posts: 8,194
Send a message via AIM to Vash113 Send a message via Yahoo to Vash113
Default Re: Tactica: Hidden Ordanance

Quote:
Originally Posted by march10k
Nope. IG was my first army. There may be some obscure forgeworld variant of the russ that can fire indirectly, but not in the codex
Im not sure what but Im almost certain I have seen a variant that was capable of doing so, it was very likely one of the more unusual variants but nevertheless I was just using it as an example. There are plenty of other things like the Bassalisk people like to sit in some hard to reach corner.

Tactical squad can do the job well. mostly I did not include them as a major unit for the job because you really want that unit to not be soley for that purpose. Lets see a 5 man squad with 2 meltas, sergeant with combi melta and a drop pod is already 140 points. Not a whole lot but thats 110pts of tactical marines now sitting in the corner who may or may not have accomplished their goal and a scoring unit that should probably be trying to return to the fight. Terminators with their longer range, assault weapons and armor can stomp pack to the fight. Land Speeders and Bikers have the speed and Dreadnaughts are one hit wonders when drop podded usually but may also be able to stomp pack to the action. But Tactical marines lack the armor, speed and range to get back into the fight before the game is over usually. For that reason I also didnt include Veterans in my noteworthy 5 list.

For general armor hunting purposes infiltrating tac squads with tank hunters can be very good at what they do, but getting at that hidden target pestering your lines is a more specific role best left to other units.

I was simply trying to adress an interesting and problematic tactical dilema that many players face from time to time. It took me quite a while to work out how to solve that problem with my Tau and I did not even do that till the 4th ed. Dex and the Piranhas. It can be quite a difficult thing to adress and hopefully this tactica will help players with that problem.
__________________



Vash113 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29 Sep 2006, 03:43   #9 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Alachua, Florida
Posts: 8,647
Send a message via MSN to MalVeauX
Default Re: Tactica: Hidden Ordanance

Heya Vash,

There's a bit more to beating hidden ordnance than simply destroying it. Beating templates via unit coherency and cover is another on your end. After all, why waste effort on it if it does minimal damage that you can suffer, while destroying the rest of the army systematically? Granted, it's not always that easy to just suffer an Earthshaker, but 66% of the time, it's scattering. And if you use 1" to 2" coherency in a covered position, you minimize the damage. Plus, if you deploy geometric shapes like a circle, line, an "X", etc, then because scatter always is a direction away from the center point of the unit, they always get minimal hits unless it's a perfect hit as you maximize the amount of empty space in the majority of possible scatter directions. A great portion of beating ordnance, is simply rendering it less potent against you.

-- I would just like to add that this thread also happens to cover non-ordnance hiding targets; like units with Jet Packs and skimmers with Crystal Targeting Matrices. They're quite similar and often these very same units are used to do the same thing there.

As for your unit choices/suggestions. Some I agree with. Others, sure, are possible, but not likely in the course of a game. Anyhow, of them, there's a few that I would put more trust in, simply from experience in use (for example Vets can do it, but really, they're not all that great and infiltration does not do the deed. A smart opponent is going to cut anything that infiltrates off fast; it's too obvious what they're after). Anyhow, some of those that I would put more trust in:

Terminators - (++) Absolutely! They're great at it. But delivery is questionable. Deep strike is very dangerous deep in enemy territory, near a board edge, if there's impassible terrain, etc. Walking is out of the question. But if you can get the tank hunting assault cannons in range, it's pretty good on the chance that it's going to at least be quiet in the following turns, if not dead. Again though, delivery is hard without certain means. But, that's what Drop Pods are for. It's expensive, but if you can get delivery to happen; they're going to work. Powerfists and better also work wonders. Stationary tanks are hit automatically in assault. They're typically low armor values; that's a lot of Str8 hits.

Assault Marines - (+) Definitely a possibility. Fast moving. They can deep strike. All good things. Not the best use of them, but delivery is more reliable, making them better than a lot of other choices. The thing that holds them back, is lack of melta tech. Luckily, plasma is more than adequate against most of these vehicles as they're usually low armor values and sometimes open-topped; the power fist simply being the cherry on top (automatically hits stationary vehicles, except skimmers, and up against A12 typically at best, that's a 4+ glance from three to four attacks that automatically hit--that's a glanced and/or penetrated tank and it's quiet next turn, unless it's a defiler).

Bikes - (+++) Excellent for the job. Turbo boosting keeps them healthy. Meltaguns do the job. Attack Bikes with multi-meltas can make it happen even faster. They're expensive and all, but it's worth it because (1) your opponent will probably dedicate some time to bounce some shots off that 3+ invulnerable save, (2) they're not shooting the rest of your army, (3) you'll probably still manage to get after that hidden tank and knock it out.

Land Speeder - (++) The Land Speeder used to be really good at busting tanks. But it recently got nerfed big time. No more deep strike multi-melta attacks! Nor screaming assault cannon & heavy bolter rear armor hoses after a deep strike. All gone. Very unfortunate. However, a fast skimmer with a multi-melta can still be extremely valuable at nailing things like Basilisks. They are small enough, and fast enough, to get by in one piece often enough and the 24" range is great; the 2D6 penetration isn't even all that necessary, though it's nice. Str8 and Ap1 do the trick. 4+ and you penetrate the typical A12. Then the tank goes away. You can also use the Assault Cannon, giving it a more flexible role in the process too. Totally depends on needs and target.

-- Now for some added ones:

Cleanse & Purify - This trait gives you the double meltas. You can also get a combi-weapon for your Serg, but it's costly to buy a serg and that combi-weapon; depends how absolute you want to be with the attack. Meltas and Plasma are all that work here, since we can't just sneak up with a lascannon ready to fire. Infiltration doesn't reliably work, because our opponent can't be expected to just ignore us and let us walk over there. Plus, the vehicle can just move away and play cat and mouse a while, at least its still scoring by doing that while your unit is just running into a trap. So in order to get these lovely doubled up special weapons up close, we need delivery. Which brings me to the next part (*).

Command Squads - Before getting to the (*), there's of course, special mention to Command Squads. A cheap Cap'n with a Command Squad is useful; your Cap'n was just there for the Rites of Battle and otherwise, un-upgraded beyond a humble bolter perhaps. Well, you were taking him anyways and you were going to take some marines anyways. So why not use them together to get something better that can help you? Cap'n plus a command squad gives you total army support via Rites, but they also have doubled up assault weapons without needing to use Traits. Well, typically you only need one squad to do this, maybe two to be absolutely certain, so you could get away with one of these. Now, add in the following, which I meant to get to earlier (*):

Drop Pods - (++++) (*) Finally arrived. I know it seems obvious, but it wasn't listed. This is something that we have access to in standard missions and this is exactly one of the situations where it's immensely useful. It makes the deep strike more safe. We can't land on enemy units or impassible terrain, we just safely settle down and we can use our Pod for automatic 4+ cover saves and we have a 2" disembark radius, so that's 2" added to any gun we use practically. But we can also hide behind our pod for a moment's safety if required. Hopefully though, we can manage to get the shots. If now, we'll be probably be in range the following turn. The only risk, is if you're going after something totally hugging the board edge, and especially the absolute corner of the board. But otherwise, its a pretty nice way to touch down. Works for Terminators, works for Tac squads, Command Squads, etc. They all are comfy in their Drop Pods. The only other problem really, is someone's willingness to buy one, or build one that is plausible enough for them or the event. But Drop Pods are quite good for this and cheap to boot.

(A small note on drop pods, and squads that you may think are wasted. Drop Pods are only usable in standard missions without consent. Most of these missions at gamma and higher, are based on location and victory points. Many of the locations, such as table quarters and enemy deployment zones or the center of the board, are always in reach of these squads because the hidden ordnance usually isn't outside of the deployment zone, or at least far from it. So if they accomplish the job or not, you have a power armored scoring unit safely touched down in a game where simple surviving scoring units literally win the game at the end unless it's Alpha level. Another way to go about it, is to have a melta in the squad and your choice between a lascannon or heavy bolter, and then give a combi-melta to the Serg; you've got the two meltas for the one attack you'll need. Then if you're stranded, you suddenly shift to support sitting there with a lascannon firing, or dakka from your heavy bolter. Options!)

Cheers!
__________________
[table][tr][td][/td][td][table][tr][td] [/td][td]Apocalypse is the only way to forty-kay.[/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table]
MalVeauX is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Can Ordanance and Barrage weapons ignore night fighting rules? Akaiyou General 40K 11 06 Nov 2009 16:51
The Hidden Blow Colonel Marksman Tau Army Lists 5 18 Nov 2008 15:54
skimmers and ordanance - plz help Gairon General 40K 4 09 Apr 2007 10:21
Ordanance Q ReApEr General 40K 22 09 Dec 2005 22:27