Tau Empire Codex 2013 | Army Builder Program
Dark Angels Codex 2013
Chaos Daemons Codex 2013
Chaos Space Marines Codex 2012

Warhammer 40k Forum Tau Online

 

Warhammer 40K Forum

How many weapons?! (Long message - Brace yourself)
Closed Thread
Old 31 Aug 2006, 23:11   #1 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hertford, UK
Posts: 5,086
Default How many weapons?! (Long message - Brace yourself)

Here's an interesting observation: According to the codex, many marines appear to be able to add additional weapons to their arsenal without sacrificing their standard weaponry. For instance, assault marines with Flamers also appear to retain their bolt pistol and close combat weapon!

If we look first at the Terminator squad unit entry in the army list it says:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Codex: Space Marines (page 30)
Up to two Terminators may replace their Storm Bolter with an assault cannon at +# points or a heavy flamer at +# points or may add a cyclone missile launcher to their existing weaponry at +# points.
Now in this instance it actually makes mention of replacing a default weapon with an alternative for a certain points value. It also specifically mentions adding a weapon to their existing weaponry. So that's all fine, but the tactical squad unit entry in the army list reads:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Codex: Space Marines (page 34)
One Space Marine can be armed with a weapon from the following list: heavy bolter at +# points; missile launcher or multi-melta at +# points.
So does this mean a Marine with a missile launcher can also carry his default bolter? It would make sense that a Marine with a heavy weapon would also carry his personal weapon too.


The assault squad unit entry in the army list reads:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Codex: Space Marines (page 36)
Up to two Space Marines can be armed with a weapon from the following list: flamer at +# points or plasma pistol at +# points.
So are we to assume an assault Marine with a flamer retains his bolt pistol and close combat weapon? I know what you're going to say; "because it doesn't specify that the upgrade weapon is added to the existing weaponry, like the Terminator's cyclone missile launcher, it replaces the model's existing weaponry." But if that is the case, why does an assault marine with a plasma pistol get to keep his close combat weapon? And can he opt to keep the bolt pistol instead?

Unless there's a rule for it elsewhere and I'm just not aware of it, only characters with access to the armoury are restricted to two weapons:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Codex: Space Marines (page 22)
Models with access to the Armoury may select up to two weapons of which only one can be a two-handed weapon.
One might assume this restriction pertains only to models with access to the Armoury so people can't load them up with all the weapons on the list, or at least a good selection, to make them exceptionally versatile and powerful. Whereas the addition of a single flamer to a marine is an upgrade that can't really be tampered with and abused.

You might argue that upgrade weapons swap out with default weapons like for like, for example; missile launchers and plasma guns are two-handed weapons so they replace the default bolters. Similarly, plasma pistols are one-handed firearms so they replace bolt pistols. But where does that leave the assault marine's flamer? Why does it replace the bolt pistol and close combat weapon? Even if the weapon restrictions are considered to be in play for 'normal' models, doesn't that mean he could retain one of the one-handed weapons?

I know I must be wrong, I'm certain of it. But I can't find any evidence of it. Is this addressed in FAQs somewhere? :-\
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel_Sanders
When all was finished, the battlefield was a smoking crater. UDC, Valoran, US Army, Tau, the Nazis, a random pirate ship, and a bunch of ninjas, all were enemies to the Vulture. All were turned into scrap metal. Or plastic. Depends which game system you play.
Tom Norman is offline  
Old 31 Aug 2006, 23:20   #2 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,098
Send a message via AIM to T pok Send a message via MSN to T pok
Default Re: How many weapons?! (Long message - Brace yourself)

I would say it does, becuse in the IG the heavy wepon units(2 models with a heavy wepon) can frie the Heavy wepon and 1 can fire a lasgun. Each model can fire 1 wepon in all forces.(multi tracker changes that).
This is also the reson that bike entrys in the space marine codex say that a wepon can be fired for each crew member.
This is also the reson why more modern codex's say how many crew their are so you know how many wepons can be fired.(they must have a crew member for each gun to fire and they have to be able to fire it based on Defense-ofense wepons.
__________________
http://mylifelm.wordpress.com/
Quote:
Originally Posted by Savon Saal
brave kid, i don't know if i could do that. whichever girl gets you for life is the luckiest in the world.
T pok is offline  
Old 31 Aug 2006, 23:32   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Posts: 930
Default Re: How many weapons?! (Long message - Brace yourself)

The question is not firing the weapon, it's having the weapon.

Also, the crew does not define how many weapons it can fire.

The RAW is a bit iffy, but it does imply that these weapons are in addition to existing weaponry. However, everybody plays it as though it does and you'd be hard-pressed to prove your case to a judge.
On a side note, there is no limit to how many weapons a model may carry - just how many they can buy from the armoury.
__________________


"In the nightmare future of the far future there is only war." - Apocalypse
O Y Montyr is offline  
Old 01 Sep 2006, 01:21   #4 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Cambridge, MA
Posts: 266
Default Re: How many weapons?! (Long message - Brace yourself)

Alright, i don't bring official GW info here, but where i am a chaos player once tried to put away his missle launcher and pull out a bolter on me. I thought it was some specail chaos rule, since they (like the 'nids) seem to just make up rules and then play by them (usually having coveniently forgotten their codex at home...). Now, this was an honest mistake, but all our rules gurus jumped on the idea pretty hard. Yeah, it's a little silly to think that a guy would go to war with only his missle launcher, but then, it's a little silly to think that is anyone in his squad moves so much as an inch, he cant fire. It totally replaces the existing weaponry. In the case of comperable weapons (i.e. bolt/plasma pistols) those weapons swap out.
__________________
The Three Rs of Tau Assault:
Retreat
Rally
Rapid Fire

Gets 'em every time

Bustafer Jones is offline  
Old 01 Sep 2006, 03:52   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 227
Default Re: How many weapons?! (Long message - Brace yourself)

I have good news and bad news. It just so happens that I have an official GW response, the bad news is that it's idiotic.

In White Dwarf US issue 318, July 2006, on page 85 the article "A Word in your Ear" written by Edward "The Dakka Toughguy" Maule addresses this particular rule dispute. And in the end, Maule basically says that the RAW says he has a bolter, and then insults anyone who so much as questioned it for about a paragraph. (You're "Unreasonable", questioning something so obviously clarified by the RAW.)

But, and I'll grudging admit this, according to the Rules As Written, he's right, the heavy and special weapon user also has a bolter. Yes, characters can only carry one two handed weapon, but the model in question isn't a character. It doesn't say replaced...etc. Basically all the points Tom made inn his post.

After I read "Toughguy's" article, I talked with some of the local Marine players and most people agreed that it was rather stupid and so we made a house rule intentionally limiting ourselves. It would be nice for something official to patch this kind of thing, but apparently no mistakes that GW makes from here on out will be fixed until there is a new Rulebook or Codex to change in. RAW stands. :
__________________
[b]Quote from: Destraal[b]
Quote:
Better powergaming test? Ok:
1. Do you intend to win even if it might take the fun of the game away from either yourself or your opponent?

If you answered yes to question 1, you are in fact a power gamer, and your list is probably either beardy or you can abuse the rules to make it such.
Tech-Commander Archive is offline  
Old 01 Sep 2006, 05:06   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 103
Default Re: How many weapons?! (Long message - Brace yourself)

I was confused as well, but then realized that even today, a person with an AT weapon or a SAW for instance, only has that one weapon. It's too cumbersome to carry anything else for one, and secondly, the rest of the squad has the small arms fire to make up for the one person who is not capable of firing at that time.

Keep in mind, Ed min/maxes (from what I have seen) and all this does is support his lack of wanting more men to cover for the special/heavy weapon trooper.

Granted it does not say he loses his bolter, but it's safe to presume that he has had more involved weapon training and therefore, his bolter is not as effective as the weapon he has specialized in. I mean, why take a bolter, if I have a missile launcher and the other 9 men in my squad are able to support me?

Just my thoughts.
__________________
sXe for life!
byteboy is offline  
Old 01 Sep 2006, 17:32   #7 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hertford, UK
Posts: 5,086
Default Re: How many weapons?! (Long message - Brace yourself)

Quote:
Originally Posted by byteboy
I was confused as well, but then realized that even today, a person with an AT weapon or a SAW for instance, only has that one weapon. It's too cumbersome to carry anything else for one, and secondly, the rest of the squad has the small arms fire to make up for the one person who is not capable of firing at that time.

Keep in mind, Ed min/maxes (from what I have seen) and all this does is support his lack of wanting more men to cover for the special/heavy weapon trooper.

Granted it does not say he loses his bolter, but it's safe to presume that he has had more involved weapon training and therefore, his bolter is not as effective as the weapon he has specialized in. I mean, why take a bolter, if I have a missile launcher and the other 9 men in my squad are able to support me?

Just my thoughts.
I can't speak for U.S. forces, but in the British army a minimi serves as a personal weapon. A GPMG may serve as a primary weapon but you'll carry your SA80 slung. It's a section weapon, so everyone gets a bit of it for cleaning...it'd be pretty unfair if you had to clean your rifle and the GPMG! A LAW, however, serves as a secondary weapon carried until needed.

Basically, if a weapon is too unwieldy for a soldier to defend himself in a snap, he needs to carry a personal weapon. Such weapons as those discussed have a very specific purpose and are too inflexible for general purpose use (ie. room clearance, patrols, roaming sentry etc.). You might have another seven men next to you in an infantry firefight, but if you've only got a LAW then you're a wasted man; you could be adding to the fire instead of lying there waiting for a vehicle to pop up. Every soldier must be autonomous anyway; relying on your section is certainly encouraged (a 'you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours' philosophy I guess...that and section combat effectiveness), but total dependancy is a big mistake.

[hr]

Well I must say I'm surprised by the responses...I thought you'd all fetch your pitchforks and try to burn me at the stake on a charge of heresy. Hasn't really cleared anything up though. Unless someone has some official ruling to point out, I think I'll start adding slung bolters to my heavy weapon marines.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel_Sanders
When all was finished, the battlefield was a smoking crater. UDC, Valoran, US Army, Tau, the Nazis, a random pirate ship, and a bunch of ninjas, all were enemies to the Vulture. All were turned into scrap metal. Or plastic. Depends which game system you play.
Tom Norman is offline  
Old 01 Sep 2006, 19:09   #8 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Brampton Ont. Canada
Posts: 6,441
Default Re: How many weapons?! (Long message - Brace yourself)

I personally put this on the same level as other "technically I can do this" kinda things. Yeah, if you read things literally it may be possible, but I still consider it (and I'm gonna go into orky terms here) weedy. Besides, I dont think that Maule really helps the case by supporting it... Hell, after hearing some of the stories about him I take that article as "What not to do" (lets just say I'm not a fan of him)
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitch: the noob
Is it just me, or does Fish Ead really love to use a Dreadsock?...
I'd hate to get on his bad side... >
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiwaz
Fishy has just proved to me that Canadians CAN be scary...
Fish Ead is offline  
Old 01 Sep 2006, 19:28   #9 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Alachua, Florida
Posts: 8,647
Send a message via MSN to MalVeauX
Default Re: How many weapons?! (Long message - Brace yourself)

Heya Tom,

It's just another oversight by GW, where we have small instances elseware that show that weapons are replaced, and limited, yet we have zero rules to cover everything. There's literally nothing stopping you from having a Heavy bolter and bolter, or a Plasmagun and Bolter on the models who upgrade in your Tac squads. It was written in terminator entries, but not written elseware. Read in RAW, or just plain common sense, shows that one replaces and one doesn't.

Unfortunately this kind of thing is common with GW. You end up having to read between the lines. No rules are against you here, so do as you please. Anyone arguing against it have no basis to argue other than their opinion and the "You know I swear I read somewhere that you must..." kind of excuse that always comes up. The fact is, nothing is written about it.

The real problem is that we have this same kind of thing with other core rules.

-- For example, prove with rules how leadership is handled (when you have multiple leadership values in a unit that does not contain an independent character), and prove how Drop Pods and Deep Strike works in terms of friendly models. Why are huge and common things that happen left out of writing? Only the apes at the banana GW republic know... (or maybe they don't know... honestly...).

Cheers!
__________________
[table][tr][td][/td][td][table][tr][td] [/td][td]Apocalypse is the only way to forty-kay.[/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table]
MalVeauX is offline  
Old 01 Sep 2006, 20:23   #10 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hertford, UK
Posts: 5,086
Default Re: How many weapons?! (Long message - Brace yourself)

Alright, thanks. But can someone tell me what RAW stands for?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel_Sanders
When all was finished, the battlefield was a smoking crater. UDC, Valoran, US Army, Tau, the Nazis, a random pirate ship, and a bunch of ninjas, all were enemies to the Vulture. All were turned into scrap metal. Or plastic. Depends which game system you play.
Tom Norman is offline  
Closed Thread

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Long Fangs Weapons Mix Zen Space Marines 11 02 Mar 2010 19:16
Message from down under.... Dangerman Introduce yourself 5 10 Jul 2007 04:19
"Tau Brace" revisited in light of Tyranids khanaris Tau 6 05 Jul 2005 23:52
Been a long time.... Too long in my opinion... Tau Commander Introduce yourself 16 08 Jun 2005 12:59
My idea for Earth Caste Weapons Teams (long) AunLa House Rules 3 04 Feb 2005 20:26