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how fast is too fast?
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Old 18 Aug 2006, 02:24   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default how fast is too fast?

i'm playing blood angels, soon enough, and i would like a few opinions. how fast is too fast for them, before "CHEESE!" gets yelled by my oponent. i plan on making this army as mobile as possible, and assault squads do the trick in almost all cases. with the potential for three assault marines, three vet assault marines, and two assault HQ's, i'm seeing the running trend that these guys like moving really really fast. my friend tells me to "not cheese out my army," but what is cheese and what is fluffy for the BA? they live for the speed assault, and i think that several assault squads would really be within the "fluff" of the BA. the rocketing assault from across the board in a couple of turns actually fits into their fluff exactly. they are the "speed demons" of the Space Marines.
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Old 18 Aug 2006, 04:13   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: how fast is too fast?

Well BA do get some bad rep with accusations of being cheesy and overpowered/broken. However while I wont tell you to not use assault marines en mass I would tell you to keep the entire force balanced. Assault marines are IMO very cool and quite fun to use even if they arent the best all the time. I like to use them and they work great for me and I wish I had more of the guys. However the Blood Angels also have the Baal Predator which I think is great so deffinetly use one, heck even two. Take a Dreadnaught perhaps and dont minimize the tactical squads and use them to cover the advance of the Assault marines.

Even if you field a ton of assault marines throwing them down the field is still not likely to be the best idea. Thus you will also want a good number of other units to draw fire and attention while the Assault marines advance. A Furioso Dreadnaught and several or more tactical squads and a few Predators or other heavy support options to cover the advance of the tons of assault marines you have. You could even use the Death Company to draw fire by putting them running down the middle while the rest of your assault marines flank.

In any case if you want to use a lot of assault marines go right ahead just dont neglect the rest of your force. Using a lot of jump pack troops is fine as long as you keep your force balanced. You still might get some calls of cheese but anyone who wins will get those every so often and lets hope you do win.
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Old 18 Aug 2006, 17:05   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: how fast is too fast?

As much as I despise them, you can extract some speed from Rhinos before they are obliterated. I wouldn't recommend Rhinos or Razorbacks as a form of mobility to anyone, even if you plan to spearhead them with some proper armour, but if you need some variety in your army then tac squads racing forward in Rhinos will provide that...just make sure they're small squads.

Besides, an 'all Assault Marine' army will be very boring to play. At least in a normal 'all infantry' army, you can mix various unit types and weapons options to give each unit a unique identity...but assault marines don't have quite so many options.
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Old 26 Aug 2006, 07:17   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: how fast is too fast?

back in the day when i popped my warhammer chery (BA was my first) i kept it balanced with 1 baal,chap w DC, 1 vet assault, 1assault, 3 tactical,3 scout, speeder, and1 bike squad. the scouts were cc the tacticals were support DC and assault were cc, vets and bikes tank hunters and bikes and baal infantry hunted. you have a good mix of FP units and CC and good mobility.
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Old 26 Aug 2006, 15:56   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: how fast is too fast?

ahh, now that we are in 4th edition I look at blood angel players like they are free victory points. but back in 3rd edition they really were nasty weren't they?

basically when 4th came around and removed the ability to rhino rush the blood angels lost a lot of their power. no more first turn assaults with pretty much the whole army, and having been on the recieving end of that charge I can tell you that it was not fun.

personally If I were to play blood angels I think that I would take as many assault marines as possible, wether veteran or regular. and I would go with a couple of units of scouts (no snipers as you don't want to roll for their rage and lose the ability to shoot) and a few squads of marines in rhinos. as for heavies, two words: baal predator.
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Old 26 Aug 2006, 19:20   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: how fast is too fast?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dymondheart
they live for the speed assault,
in fairness, blood angels do try to act like regular space marines. hence they still have battle companies tailored along traditional codex lines. Blood Angels do however have an urge to hack things up, but most of their training is dedicated to holding down this urge. to give in to it is to join the death company...

no, the marines that live for charging and assault are space wolves.

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Old 26 Aug 2006, 19:30   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: how fast is too fast?

I am the friend that Dymondhart is talking about. We had this discussion on Wednesday if I am not mistaken and we have had it many times before that. Let me explain in slightly more detail what I said. All of this was with friendly games down at our local gaming shop in mind.

1.) The potential to take 6 assault squads, 2 chaplains, and the Death Company is there. If you use it you will have cheese called by most people.
2.) Let me direct you to a wonderful little tool which was showed to me by Wargamer a while back. It is called "The Unofficial Warhammer 40,000 Power Gamer Purity Test" and this is the link to it; http://www.geocities.com/newpaintbrush/puritytest.html. It is a wonderful little thing that helps to "de-cheese" certain armire like Assault Squad heavy BA and such. It also explains most of my views on powergaming and the like.
3.) As has already been said by Vash113, balance is crucial. If you have 6 full, base Assault squads at 22 points per model then you have just spent at least 1320 points. If you add on two minimized scout squads then you are at 1450. Then tack on the two Reclusiarchs with jump packs and nothing else and that brings you up to 1,620 points in models alone. That list has too many flaws to be remotely tactical and/or competitive.
4.) While I completely agree that the BA are an "assault oriented" army, they are often misconstrued as "Assault Squad" oriented armies. And thats just wrong. I can take 6 assault squads in a regular army and have the 2 chappy's. I have now just made the Dark Angels, Ultramarines, Salamanders, Ravengaurd, etc... into an "Assault Squad oriented" army and yet they are still not the BA's.

These have been my suggestions to him...
I like a balanced army and the BA offer that with an entirely different tactical approach that UM. Very similar the BT but manifested in a slightly less radical way. I suggested that he use 1 or 2 Rhino squads, 1 Sniper Squad and 2 scout squads for speed. 1 full Assault squads with a MM squad of attack bikes for speed. 1 Baal Pred and 2 Annihilator w/ HB sponsoons for some armor on the move. 1 Veteran assault squad and a termie squad or a Veteran Squad for infiltrate and speed. I MoS for the HQ. The MoS and regular Assault squad will join up and use flamers to get into CC, tie things up and/or slaughter infantry. The Vet Assault Squad will be about 6 men and be tricked out(melta, plasma, the works...) and will be for character and vehicle hunting. The Rhino squads should have Melta-Guns, frag grenades, extra armor, smoke launchers and maybe a vet sarge w/ power fist/weapon/etc. The entire army should always be on the attack. Always moving to press the assault and since they are balanced they will pose many threats and at the same time will be able to face most every threat. This is how I see a BA army. I probably won't play against an Assault Squad army the has more points into Assault Squads than anything else. It goes against canon, fluff, balance, common sense, and fun for me as an opponent. Remember, they are supposed to be specialists, right? Not the mainstay of the army. At least thats how I see it.

I just wanted to clarify what I had said so that we could find out what you guys thought was "fair", "balanced", "cheesy", "power gaming", and so on...

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Old 26 Aug 2006, 20:33   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: how fast is too fast?

Heya,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dymondheart
i'm playing blood angels, soon enough, and i would like a few opinions. how fast is too fast for them, before "CHEESE!" gets yelled by my oponent. i plan on making this army as mobile as possible, and assault squads do the trick in almost all cases. with the potential for three assault marines, three vet assault marines, and two assault HQ's, i'm seeing the running trend that these guys like moving really really fast. my friend tells me to "not cheese out my army," but what is cheese and what is fluffy for the BA? they live for the speed assault, and i think that several assault squads would really be within the "fluff" of the BA. the rocketing assault from across the board in a couple of turns actually fits into their fluff exactly. they are the "speed demons" of the Space Marines.
[size=11pt]In short, the army is too fast when you don't have anything left alive in your army end game to hold objectives, quarters, counters, fullfill mission objective criteria to put it simply.[/size]

What I mean by that, is that no matter what you put into this army, if it cannot uphold and win via objectives in the standard missions, in alpha to omega levels, then it's "too fast." And by "too fast" I simply mean that the army was obviously built with only one thing in mind: assault. That doesn't guarantee wins. It doesn't guarantee anything at all for that matter, except that you will largely have more problems in scenarios and missions than players with balanced armies, especially ones who are just as fast as you and no doubt out number you.

Blood Angels have a notorious reputation, just like any arch-type "super" force that is labeled by the use of it's players. Iron Warriors, Starcannon Eldar, etc. It doesn't mean that the moment you pick them up, you automatically become an albino troll with cheddar breath. It just means you're picking up a new force. The key, is to not fall into pitfalls of the armies, and attempt to use the common abuse available for the sole purpose of killing enemy models.

There's a big difference between just killing your opponent's models and actually winning a match in a mission where there are objectives. The blood angels can be configured to take on these missions just as well as any other army. However, if the blood angel force is pushed to the limits of pure assault power, simply because the player seethes for combat and doesn't care about the mission, objectives, etc and just wants to crush things in combat, then yes--it's going too fast. Because a smart opponent, can stop this kind of "fast" army in it's tracks, and win the mission in your stead. That's a cruel harsh lesson to learn when all you want to do is kill, yet you cannot win against a better player who simply follows the mission objectives and has an army built for that.

For example, what good is a massive assault marine blood angel army, when facing a vehicle heavy army? Power fists are nice and all, but they're nullified if the vehicles move, especially move than 6" a turn. The same is true for meltabombs. These armies are free to just drive through your "speed" and ignore your "power" and giggle as they take objectives and kill a few of your models in the process. A skimmer based army for example, will be your anti-thesis. You also may go straight to combat, just to find an army that is better in assault such as speeding off to assault some Genestealers, or 40 of them. You may also meet up with an army with both of these combined, where you have lascannons, missiles, etc pointed at you and plasma wielding counter-assault troops just waiting to punish your speed, with their resolve.

Really - there is no such thing as "cheese." There are levels of playing between gamers. Some gamers want to game on a level where it doesn't matter what you have, so long as it "works." And there are other levels, where it's important to the gamer to have flexibility and options, and not just rely on a single hard pushed tactic to win. When two games have a battle, and both are playing on different expected levels: you get `cheese'.

--- So ask yourself; do you want an army that can win no matter the mission, no matter the scenario and no matter the opponent? Or do you just want an army based on a bunch of flying power armored marines with powerfists because you think it would look cool? One will win more often than the other; and you already know by the above which one that will be. The question, is what you will want to play with and what you seek to accomplish with the force.

Cheers!
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Old 28 Aug 2006, 12:37   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: how fast is too fast?

point taken, mal. now, i had never actually said that i planned to take six assault squads, but i did want to take two. and probably a baal predator, and tac squads with rhinos, or scouts for their speed. i want a fast army. not necessarily an all assault army, just one that runs up the board at more than six inches per turn. never have i actually said i was actually going to cheese out my army, no, but i do want an army that can win. being a relatively new player, i like to try out things that i find cool, or useful. chaplains are my favorite command unit, and the BA have the death company for their chaplains. i plan to have a chappy with jump pack, and his DC. this is just a running standard i have seen for any BA player i personally know. now, i like the marines because they are tough little nuggets. i actually like tha tactical squad more than the devastator squad at certain times. especially in the BA. i had planned to make a list that could take on a variety of different situations. i'm not so stupid as to make a literally all assault marine army. there is no fire support, so if i come up against a good shooty army, i should get my bum handed to me on a silver platter. i personally like the look ao an assault marine. but i would never actually carry more than two of these guys. they are good enough like this. i was actually planning to take scouts, because they are cheap, quick, and can be very effective. just a slight clarification as to what i had wanted to do with my army. sorry if i made it sound like i intended to include six assault squads and two chaplains with jump packs. i'm quite stupid at times, but i don't think i'm quite that dumb. i don't lknow... maybe i am! ~_^ thanks again, guys.
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