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What if marines were a lil' more gunny and a lil' less punchy?
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Old 09 Aug 2006, 21:28   #1 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default What if marines were a lil' more gunny and a lil' less punchy?

I'm just wonderin....

If marines were more of a shooty force what would they be like? Would they look somewhat like tau?

I think that th guns for them would be a lil larger or longer. and the marine's armor would be less huge and bulky. The punchy thing is kinda annoyin ya know? I just want to know what they would look like or how they would act.
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Old 09 Aug 2006, 21:53   #2 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: What if marines were a lil' more gunny and a lil' less punchy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shas'O Fi'rios Mont'da Korst'la
I'm just wonderin....

If marines were more of a shooty force what would they be like? Would they look somewhat like tau?

I think that th guns for them would be a lil larger or longer. and the marine's armor would be less huge and bulky. The punchy thing is kinda annoyin ya know? I just want to know what they would look like or how they would act.
marines already outshoot tau...

more shooty marines would be a 9th co list with 6 devestator squads, 2 command squads and 2 tac squads...
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Old 09 Aug 2006, 22:03   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: What if marines were a lil' more gunny and a lil' less punchy?

Space Marines are inherently shooty. A lot of armies do better in hand to hand.

For instance, compare an Assault Squad to Genestealer.
Assault Squad+Stealer Brood = red paint

Marines are shooty, but have choppy elements to counter charge, unlike Tau.
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Old 09 Aug 2006, 22:06   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: What if marines were a lil' more gunny and a lil' less punchy?

umm... exactly how they are right now. they have all the "shooty" capabilities that the Tau have. is the lascannon, plasma cannon, heavy bolter, storm bolter, bolter, plasma gun etc. not shooty enough for you or something? jeez, you must have a weird thought of what "shooty" is. perhaps you should look at a deep-striking Termie squad with two HEAVY FOUR assault cannons! yeah, plus the storm bolters they have. if that isn't shooty, then i don't know what is. the marines are supposed to be "punchy" and "shooty" at the same time. just because they don't have a S 5 standard gun, that doesn't mean they can't kill stuff with their firepower. heck, mass bolters is a very deadly solution to any problem. i don't really get how you mean "make them shootier"
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Old 10 Aug 2006, 10:50   #5 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: What if marines were a lil' more gunny and a lil' less punchy?

If you look at the way 40K is balanced it favours close combat... Weapon ranges are generally short when compaired to movement rates and the ability to move, shoot then assault tips the balance towards punchy!

If you look at the progression for hero stat lines as well... usually the stats that generally improve are WS, BS, I and A. Which naturally favour close combat.

There is no variability in leadership style. It would be nice to have great heros as is, but also great leaders that are rubbish in combat but bring other leadership skills / abilities to the table.

I would favour making the game in general more shooty, that is combat taking place at short to medium range. This could be easly done with a slight mod to the standard mechanics of the game. Simply you get to run OR move and shoot OR charge and assault. For additonal flexability have the option to shoot then move.

These changes imediatly move the balance of the game from Assault to Medium Range, where the game becomes more of a gun battle rather than a hack fest. To make the game even fairer and tactical remove the initiave stat and simply fight only the attackers CC rather than both attacker and defenders CC. Essentially this that the defenders only get to fight back on their turn when they activate, this makes getting the charge very useful.

Okay I realise that I've deviated off the topic, but what I'm trying to get across is that the game system favours assault capable army. Those armies that are not assault base Tau, need more fire power or tricks to maintain the balance. SM are good all round warriors and should do well regardless.
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Old 10 Aug 2006, 19:42   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: What if marines were a lil' more gunny and a lil' less punchy?

Yeah, Marines do everything to a decent standard and have great survivability...that's why they are so well suited to beginner players; mistakes are less punishing with Marines. That's not to say there's no tactical gameplay required to use Space Marines, I'm not saying that at all, but they're easier for a beginner to play with than say...Eldar.

Not sure I agree with you regarding Initiative, darthgus. I think it's important that the enemy has the opportunity to fight back. The attackers already have an extra attack each, so there's a big advantage right there! I actually this this initiative thing should be used in the shooting phase too. At the moment, the army that gets the first turn has a huge advantage, especially if they have a lot of barrage weapons or there's little terrain. If every weapon had an initiative characteristic, with the smaller infantry weapons firing first and the big artillery guns firing last it'd be more fair. Weapon strengths would have to be decreased I suppose, to compensate for having twice as many shooting phases in a game. But I think it'd work much better that way. It might also stop people relying so heavily on their big shooty units like Hammerheads, Basilisks and Demolishers...which can only be a good thing. I like a mobile and fluid battle.
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Old 11 Aug 2006, 10:31   #7 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: What if marines were a lil' more gunny and a lil' less punchy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by darthgus
If you look at the way 40K is balanced it favours close combat... Weapon ranges are generally short when compaired to movement rates and the ability to move, shoot then assault tips the balance towards punchy!
as GW said, if they'd do weapon ranges accurately, we'd be playing on tennis courts... it used to be a lot worse in 3rd ed, and then assault dominated. its swung back a lot now, and shooty is far more powerful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darthgus
If you look at the progression for hero stat lines as well... usually the stats that generally improve are WS, BS, I and A. Which naturally favour close combat.
how else can you make them more uber in terms of stats? there is not much you can do elsewhere!

Quote:
Originally Posted by darthgus
There is no variability in leadership style. It would be nice to have great heros as is, but also great leaders that are rubbish in combat but bring other leadership skills / abilities to the table.
space marines are warlords. great fighters and leaders. represented by their stats and the rites of battle. is that a leadership skill they bring?
look at tau etherials. re-roll morale checks? there's a leadership ability. tau commanders have fancy gizmos that help out elsewhere.
look at the imperial guard? if you're within 12" of a HQ officer, you get to use his leadership, and his stats are not uber at all. look at commissars. "you WILL stand your ground!"
eldar farseers stat wise are not that great, but their psychic powers rock and boost the whole army. guide. fortune. mind war. eldritch storm.
tyranids. "stat close lads, and yuo lot are fearless! and i can stomp things too!"
ork warbosses are bigger 'n' meaner than other boyz so they're fine.
then there are inquisitors in the ...hunter codices. no great stats but look at the stuff they've got access to!

they all have something that is far more than mere stats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darthgus
I would favour making the game in general more shooty, that is combat taking place at short to medium range. This could be easly done with a slight mod to the standard mechanics of the game. Simply you get to run OR move and shoot OR charge and assault. For additonal flexability have the option to shoot then move.
have a look at the starship troopers game from mongoose publishing. its designed my andy chambers. it can be as shooty as you want. there's no move, shoot, assault phase. your unit gets 2 actions per turn, and these can be move, shoot, charge/close combat. shoot twice? go right ahead! its like a far more advanced 40k with flyers, armour mods, better mission designer, fortifications etc. check it out.

but 40k works fine as it is. shoot and fight must e balanced for it to work. and they are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darthgus
These changes imediatly move the balance of the game from Assault to Medium Range, where the game becomes more of a gun battle rather than a hack fest. To make the game even fairer and tactical remove the initiave stat and simply fight only the attackers CC rather than both attacker and defenders CC. Essentially this that the defenders only get to fight back on their turn when they activate, this makes getting the charge very useful.
its fine where it is. lookie, 40k is essentially the firefight of epic. it is a close range firestorm of an engagement. as such long, short, and medium are already obselete.

how is removing the initiative fairer and tactical? the whole point of assault is its a swirling melee with everyone bashing, hacking, biting, kicking, screaming and dying. everyone being able to fight, and fight back is realistic in the 40k mechanics. its just annoying that a d.speed/infiltrate lord could potentially get, over 60 attacks in a game, and a trooper with a gun gets 12... still, i'll tolerate it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darthgus
Okay I realise that I've deviated off the topic, but what I'm trying to get across is that the game system favours assault capable army. Those armies that are not assault base Tau, need more fire power or tricks to maintain the balance. SM are good all round warriors and should do well regardless.
i've never found myself as the underdog in a game, except against ridiculous 500pt seer coucils or death company. i've played most armies of shooty and assaulty, and i've never found one to be clearly favoured by the mechanics. my firepower is more than adequate to take on anyone else in the game.

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