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Vindicator against tau...?
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Old 06 Aug 2006, 04:36   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Vindicator against tau...?

Would you reccomend taking a vindicator against tau...? Due to the Tau having Hammerheads with railguns, I don't know if it would be the "smart" idea to whereas I could take a Devastator Squad, but I am already "forming up" one. This is what I have so far if it helps you out:

Force Commander (power fist, storm bolter)
Marine Squad:
-8x marines with bolter
-1x marine with plasma
-1x apothecary sergeant
-Rhino
Marine Squad:
-9x marines with bolter
-1x marine with plasma
- either footsloging or drop pod (usually drop pod)
Pred Annihilator:
-Heavy bolter sponsons
Assault Marine Squad:
8x Assault marines
1x Assault marine with flamer (I'll try to increase this to 2)
1x Sergeant with power fist bolt pistol
Devastator Squad:
-3x missiles launchers ( I use tank hunter trait, although I am trying to get lascannons instead, so then I'll have 4 weapons with the strength of a railgun)
-4x with bolters

Anyways would do you guys think...? Taking a vindicator against Tau? (May end up doing so anyways because vindicators are cool 8)) Oh, and are standard battlefield is 5 by 5. So give me any recommendations, or advice.
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Old 06 Aug 2006, 05:02   #2 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Vindicator against tau...?

Actually I would not take a vindicator against Tau. Instead I would take a whirlwind. The vindicator is too close ranged and there are a ton of weapons in the Tau army that can blow it to shreds and more than a few that can outrange it and the Tau possess the mobility to get to it aswell. The whirlwind however can stay well out of the way raining shells on the Tau infantry. My own Tau army before I mechanized it found its infantry stuck in cover from artillery shells from whirlwinds and the like. A vindicator can too easily be ignored, circumvented or destroyed. Id take the whirlwind over it in most situations. The demolisher would blast through terminators but against Firewarriors, Kroot and even battlesuits the whirlwind should do fine, the higher toughness and better ap wont help as much as the survivability.
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Old 06 Aug 2006, 13:26   #3 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Vindicator against tau...?

I agree, the Whirlwind is your heavy support choice here in terms of pie-plate chucking. Your alternatives are very few though. You've obviously got the Vindicator, and your other alternative is a Vulture, but that's expensive (both in real currency and points) and you might have a really annoying opponent who insists Forge World models are not allowed (as if they confer some unfair advantage :).

I've been trying to find a use for the Vindicator myself, but I've concluded it is only useful against MEQs. The demolisher cannon is no match for a Predator's twin-linked lascannons in terms of tank killing effectiveness (more so reliability) and against armies with a majority toughness of 3 and a 4+ save, you're better off with Vash's proposed Whirlwind. It can deliver that pie plate wherever it is needed most without even exposing itself, whereas the Vindicator has a limited choice of targets and is no more effective against basic troops than the Whirlwind anyway.

Might I suggest a Siege Dreadnought though? Its Inferno cannon is an ideal weapon for use against troops and it won't suck up one of those precious Heavy Support slots. Again, you've got to deal with the 'Forge World is powergaming' people.
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Old 06 Aug 2006, 14:32   #4 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Vindicator against tau...?

Heya,

I would most certainly not take a Vindicator up against Tau. Even if they were completely static with no skimmers to be seen.

The Vindy is only A13, and penetrable. Even with smokes, she's going to be at least stunned and unable to fire. For the cost, you could have gotten a predator, with the same armor value, but a better anti-tank weapon load. See, if the Vindicator takes glances/penetrating hits, you suffer big time because you can either (1) not shoot due to stunned, (2) lose the only gun you have worth shooting, (3) end up a box with no guns in a single shot. A predator has three different weapons, and it would take a lot to rip them all off, keep her stunned. Now, she's destroyable just as easily as the Vindy, but the other aspects of being not destroyed are more favorable to the Predator.

That said, let's also look at the Demolisher as a weapon, assuming we do get it. The massive Str10 is pretty much wasted. Nothing in the Tau army is effected any greater (wound wise) by Str10 than they are by Str8. The AP2 is a nice thing, but Tau have few 2+ saves, and generally they're housed on the units which just to so happen to penetrate your tank on a 3+. And they quite easily come with 4+ invulnerable saves and have enough range to slam that vehicle from two boards away. The Demolisher's actual weapon is pretty much not all that great, compared to lesser template attacks.

Boiling down to it, the Whirlwind is a far better deal. It's safer, its pounds the soiled undies out of Fire Warriors and Kroot, causes pinning, and only has less odds of dealing damage to things with 3+ saves. Well, look at the cost again. She's quite worth it.

In the end - what a Demolisher does to Tau, can be replicated and done easier by Marines with lascannons, and/or heavy bolters. They will be more durable, not be offed in a single shot, and their guns aren't stunned until death do them part.

Cheers!
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Old 06 Aug 2006, 16:03   #5 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Vindicator against tau...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MalVeauX
Boiling down to it, the Whirlwind is a far better deal. It's safer, its pounds the soiled undies out of Fire Warriors and Kroot, causes pinning, and only has less odds of dealing damage to things with 3+ saves. Well, look at the cost again. She's quite worth it.
And let's not forget the pinning test modifier conferred by ordnance barrage weapons.

Also, being an ordnance weapon, you can actually land a sneaky ordnance penetrating hit against any vehicle that turns its rear armour facing to your Whirlwind. If you can get units behind his vehicles and give him a reason to turn around, it can come as quite a surprise when his Hammerhead gets a Vengeance missile in the back. Not really a viable tank-killing tactic becuase it requires that elusive 6 to pull it off (and that's assuming the missile hits the target), but it's worth remembering should the opportunity arise.
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Originally Posted by Colonel_Sanders
When all was finished, the battlefield was a smoking crater. UDC, Valoran, US Army, Tau, the Nazis, a random pirate ship, and a bunch of ninjas, all were enemies to the Vulture. All were turned into scrap metal. Or plastic. Depends which game system you play.
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Old 06 Aug 2006, 16:07   #6 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Vindicator against tau...?

Yeah those are the responses I expected to hear: Strength X, and AP X are just overkill on firewarriors and such, and its just wasted to where I can get a whirlwind who does the same thing, but safely behind cover (and really cheap! pts wise! ) If you guys remember that 2000 pt army list I posted, it didn't include a Vindicator, but instead a whirlwing and 2 preds. I was just making sure to see if there was some ace in the hole for using a vindicator against tau. Guess not! :P

I was actually thinking of a cray idea for my army. (well not crazy just out of the ordinary...?) I was gonna take a Land Raider as a Heavy support choice , and use it to solely hunt tanks. ;D Then I was going to use a whirlwind, and a pred to accompany it. And then I was thinking of using the Honor your wargear trait, to whereas I can take Devastator squads as elite choices, and they can choose tank hunters or to infiltrate. So it's pretty much like having 4 heavy supports. ^-^

I like the idea, and each choice is different; Predator Annihilator with Heavy bolters(<---I have this), whirlwind, Land raider, and a devastator team. Then you just throw in some tacticals, a scout squad, an assault squad, a land speeder (multimelta), deepstriking terminators, and a dreadnought.

What do you guys think...? Good idea or bad?
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Old 06 Aug 2006, 16:29   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Vindicator against tau...?

Ok, first of all I take the vindicator against every army, but thats more to my intense love for the tank and not to it being the end all be all (or it could also be towards my mental health problems, but we shouldn't go there... at least the voices are telling me not to...). But even then I do realize that against the tau the vindicator is not the optimal tank that it is against most other armies.

Having said that, I must insist upon giving a thumbs down to the whirlwind also. while the ability to chuck a pie plate is always good, the range and indirect nature is also really nice and the strength and ap are decent, the armor value is what I find disturbing. And don't give me the "but you can hide it so that they can't get a shot at it" line. The tau have weaponry that doesn't require line of sight (smart missiles, airbursting fragment, seeker missiles - although these do need the marker light to have line of sight), and enough speed to be able to take the whirlwind out before you can use it to full effect. I would even be willing to say that it is possible for the tau, if they get first turn, to blow it up before you get a chance to use it.

and it also has most of the negatives that were posted about the vindicator. If you destroy a weapon, well theres only really one choice of weapon to destroy isn't there? That with the weak armor and you facing tau with it, no I wouldn't take it. It would be easy victory points for the tau.

Now the vindicator, while the gun is overkill, does have decent armor. Give it extra armor and power of the machine spirit (what, you stunned it... ok my turn, I shoot my vindicator!). You want to be really nasty then take a techmarine and 4 servitors and place them directly behind the vindicator. now the only way they can stop it is to completely destroy it, as everything else will be fixed on a 2+ every turn. again, this isn't the best option against tau but its still better than a whirlwind with paper armor...
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Old 06 Aug 2006, 17:51   #8 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Vindicator against tau...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Howloutloud

Having said that, I must insist upon giving a thumbs down to the whirlwind also. while the ability to chuck a pie plate is always good, the range and indirect nature is also really nice and the strength and ap are decent, the armor value is what I find disturbing. And don't give me the "but you can hide it so that they can't get a shot at it" line. The tau have weaponry that doesn't require line of sight (smart missiles, airbursting fragment, seeker missiles - although these do need the marker light to have line of sight), and enough speed to be able to take the whirlwind out before you can use it to full effect. I would even be willing to say that it is possible for the tau, if they get first turn, to blow it up before you get a chance to use it.

and it also has most of the negatives that were posted about the vindicator. If you destroy a weapon, well theres only really one choice of weapon to destroy isn't there? That with the weak armor and you facing tau with it, no I wouldn't take it. It would be easy victory points for the tau.

In my case, I think the Whirlwind would be the optimal choice. You gotta remember this: When space marines fight Tau, Tau are pretty much always on the defensive because they just outrange marines with pretty much every weapon they have. Therefore my space marines are alway roaring towards the Tau with many rhinos, Preds, assault marines, and maybe a Land Raider...? I just think that there would be too many things to target before the whirlwind, and the fact that it does sit back and "hide" and shoots makes it at the bottom of the target list. There will always be a huge screen of, well, pretty much everything else in your army that will be closer to the Tau, making the whirlwind harder to target.

The only thing I see that would be able to harm my whirlwind would be deepstriking Crisis suits, but even then they can get wounded by the vengeance missiles. And you could take smoke launchers on your whirlwind for protection in case this does happen. Making it 88 pts instead of 85... : Oh and if they do destroy the whirlwind, its easy points, but not much easy points ^-^ All space marine tanks are cheap, excluding the Land Raider.

Oh and I don't know it I told you guys already, but my tau opponent is a rather "Static" Tau army player. He does have 2 Hammerheads (Don't all Tau players? :) but no devilfishes! He always forms a huge battle line and sits back and shoots. (even when we play a take and hold mission... tsk, tsk, tsk... :)
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Old 06 Aug 2006, 18:29   #9 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Vindicator against tau...?

Just a note on the above, in terms of armor values:

The armor of the Whirly is actually just fine. Any higher, and the cost would go up. We're already thankful that it's not open-topped, like other popular indirect fire cheap ordnance. Now the tau SMS is only going to be able to inflict damage to a Whirly on a 6+ on 3x out of 4x sides of the armor. He would have to get behind your vehicle (very unlikely) to actually bring this down to a 5+. With only 4 shots, a 6+ is pretty much enough to not worry about it. It would require the kind of luck that you simply cannot account for other than it being "luck."

The seeker missiles are indeed useful for taking down hidden vehicles due to their nature, but the fact that most markerlights are immobile and require line of sight drastically decreases the odds that a markerlight will ever turn up and score a hit on a vehicle hidden such as that. You're far more likely to be taken down by a deep striking battle suit and/or piranha before a seeker would ever be used for this, even remotely effectively.

The Airburst Frag weapon doesn't have sufficient strength to even effect the Whirlwind. It can only score a glance on the absolute rear armor and it's only on a 6+. This template attack must have it's center hole over the vehicle's hull, or the strength is halved. Strength 4 is already not doing anything, let alone strength 2. This weapon should be of zero concern to your Whirly.

All of the above are extremely low on the likelyhood of doing damage to your Whirlwind.
You are significantly more in danger when it comes to: Deep Striking Drones & XV8's and Piranha.

It is improbable that Tau could ever take out the Whirlwind, first turn, without having line of sight. With line of sight, it's obvious, a missile pod or railgun will drop it. But without line of sight, the reason we take the vehicle, Tau are very limited in their ability to do anything about it until turn two. It's possible, mind you, but not probable.

With Line of Sight:

-Obviously going to be destroyed easily.
But this is the case with any vehicle, against Tau.

Without Line of Sight:

-SMS; 48" board, Whirly to the rear, perhaps 6 inches into deployment. SMS mounted on vehicle that is up 12 inches in deployment. Vehicle moves 12 inches, fires 24 inche SMS into Whirlwind without line of sight required. That's easily a maximum of 48 inches that these shots can be placed, anywhere on the board, without sight requirement. SMS certainly can hit the Whirly. That's 4 shots at BS4 (targetting array assumed), with an average expected glance probability of 0.4. You would need more than one SMS. Two of them combined, still doesn't give you a guaranteed chance. For it to be reliable, you will need nearly 3x SMS systems. This is pretty unlikely, since taking down a Whirly with those shots instead of other more important targets would be poor target priority (also consider, most of that force with 3x SMS would probably have very little infantry anyways due to the nature of having 3x SMS and where they're fielded).

-Airburst Frag cannot achieve any form of damage on turn one to a Whirly. The strength simply cannot touch the armor value of the Whirly. It's range is also too limited and cannot even enter the deployment zone of the enemy. It's pretty much case closed for this weapon and shouldn't be considered a threat, what so ever.

-Seeker missiles have good odds of causing damage (glance on a 3+). But, they come with a heavy price tag which require line of sight in the form of Markerlights. Without line of sight, there is no seeker missile to worry about, ever. So again, first turn destruction to a whirlwind out of line of sight via this method, will most probably not occur.

* Turn two is a whole new ball game though, in terms of the units described above.

** A Whirly versus an infantry heavy static Tau list is one of the better choices you can make. It will cause great damage, pressure and be a valuable scoring unit. Highly recommended.

Cheers!

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Old 06 Aug 2006, 19:52   #10 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Vindicator against tau...?

wow, you guys must not have played against my tau when I had them . I guarantee that whirlwind would have been destroyed early, as I can't have you killing whole units at a time.

Quote:
Therefore my space marines are alway roaring towards the Tau with many rhinos, Preds, assault marines, and maybe a Land Raider...?
out of all those things the one that would have given me the most trouble is the assault marines, and I probably would have sacrificed a unit of kroot to slow them down long enough to take out the rest.

no, I think that the whirlwind would literally be priority one when tau are concerned. the land raider will be lucky to kill one or two models a turn, and then only if he can get a good draw on something. the pred would have an even harder time, especially if you decided to have a anihilator with las sponsons. Rhinos are just plain fun to destroy.... >

I played a very fluid mixed list with some things that sat back (broadsides and 2 of my 4 troop choices) and most of them which moved everyturn. It has been a long time since I've seen the Airbursting, so I admit that I could be wrong about that, but the smart missile systems do have a really good chance. granted they need a 6+ to glance, but with 4 shots per and multiples in my army... well I can roll a six on every once in a while, can you? As far as seeker missiles go, yeah its hard to get a draw on a hidden whirlwind first turn, but it is possible (thank god for the scouts rule on pathfinders) and all it takes is one...

no, against tau I would rather take other things.

also I noticed no one argued against my vindi idea. that tells me it either is really good, or so crappy that no one wanted to waste their breath... either way its my idea and I'm patenting it. I'll call it the Howl maneuver. ;D
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