Tau Empire Codex 2013 | Army Builder Program
Dark Angels Codex 2013
Chaos Daemons Codex 2013
Chaos Space Marines Codex 2012

Warhammer 40k Forum Tau Online

 

Warhammer 40K Forum

Razorbacks - an Analysis
Closed Thread
Old 23 Jul 2006, 21:05   #1 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 414
Send a message via MSN to charn
Default Razorbacks - an Analysis

[size=14pt]An Analysis of the Razorback[/size]


For the sake of discussion, I have decided to take a look at the rarely used, and often looked down upon Space Marine transport that is the Razorback. Let’s go over some of the myths and facts Consider it food for thought.

[hr]

Fire Magnet - The Razorback sacrifices the Rhino’s large transport capacity and cheap cost for a prominently placed twin-linked heavy weapon. It is a combination of this weapon, higher cost and weak armour which makes it a worthwhile target for enemy guns. If the main weapon is forsaken for a round or two to facilitate transportation of a squad, it is still a very tempting target. Thus, the Razorback is often toted as being a fire magnet, and a rather vulnerable one at that.

Expensive for its Worth – The Razorback is more expensive points-wise than a Rhino, and is just as easy to destroy. With the almost mandatory smoke launchers and extra armour upgrades, the heavy bolter variant works out at nearly 80 points, while the lascannon variant weighs in at a hefty ~100 points. This gives the Razorback a variety of tactical roles – transport for small squads, anti-infantry and tank-killer. However, only one role can really be undertaken effectively at a time, and as mentioned above the vehicle may not last too long, so is the high points cost really worth it?

Battletank? – The Razorback is sometimes viewed as a cheaper, lighter version of the Predator battle tank. With the heavy bolter, it can mow down GEQ infantry effectively, and a twin-linked lascannon is a potent anti-tank weapon. However, can it really compare with a predator as a battletank?

A predator armed with twin-linked lascannon, and the mandatory upgrades costs almost 130 points – 30 points more than the lascannon armed Razorback. The predator has better armour, although only on the front, and has no transport capability. The predator also takes up a heavy support slot on the FOC, but counts as a scoring unit – the Razorback does not. The predator can pick from a choice of sponson weapons, allowing it to undertake both an anti-tank and anti-infantry role at the same time. However, a predator cannot be fielded in a Combat Patrol game, whereas a Razorback can.

So given the various pros and cons of each compared with the other, does the Razorback’s slightly cheaper cost make it a viable choice as a light battletank, or is it still too expensive for its worth? Does it depend on the heavy weapon that is chosen? Is a Razorback any more of a fire magnet than a Predator?

Transport? – The cheapest available Razorback is only 20 points more expensive than a similarly upgraded Rhino. The Razorback is just as capable of filling a dedicated transport role as a Rhino for small squads, but is it worth the extra cost?

The Razorback has the potential to utilise it’s heavy weapon after a rush, or even while carrying passengers at a modest pace, however a single weapon destroyed result will reduce it to an unarmed Rhino chassis. The Rhino also has firing points and a sometimes nifty ‘self-repair’ rule, whereas the Razorback does not. However, Rhinos in a ‘Rhino rush’ are often given top priority for attention from enemy shooting, so are Razorbacks any different? Could they be more suited towards a specialist ‘hunting’ role, rather than an all-out charge role? Should they be used instead of, or in addition to Rhinos? Is a Razorback any more viable as a transport as a Rhino is?

[hr]

So in conclusion, I would like to hear your opinions and experiences with these things. Overall, is the Razorback worth it or not? Does it depend on the situation? What situations will Razorbacks excel in over Predators or Rhinos, and what situations will they lack in? What Tactical options do they offer? How do you use them? Have I missed anything?


Thanks.
charn is offline  
Old 23 Jul 2006, 21:42   #2 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: BlackBurn, Lancashire, England
Posts: 3,060
Send a message via MSN to Elessar
Default Re: Razorbacks - an Analysis

the way i see it, you shave off a few points on the initial cost and you've got yourself and ace tank. Not so much in battle, but for fluff reasons. Razor backs aren't often usedin fluff, and that's becuase they aren't often used in battles. But why? the razor back is so space marineish. Marines can do anything, razor backs can do anything. Marines come in small tactically efficient squad(i.e 6 men), not massive un-wieldly squads(i.e. 10 men). A squad of marines speeding up a street, disembarking under cover of heavy bolters and engageing the enemy. The razor back then moves off and flanks them enemy, smashing through the weak rear/side defences and throwing them into disaray while the marines mop them up. Then they hop back in and are back home for medals and tea.

I personally love them, but they cost too much. 20 points and the loss of 4 seats, a stormbolter and two fireing point is obscenely high for twin-linked heavy bolters. Thats the same price you pay for 4 normal bolters in a tactical squad. Heck, i can buy two heavy bolters on a predator which would give me more shots, better survivalbility, i wouldn't lose the stormbolter, seating or fireing point and it'd cost me half as much! 55 points would be good, 60 at the most.
__________________
http://world2.monstersgame.co.uk/?ac=vid&vid=31118495
go to the above to help me on a browser game
Download my codex! http://www.box.net/public/d6c1ki0iah Click on the .pub file and hit Save to Disk.

Elessar is offline  
Old 23 Jul 2006, 21:56   #3 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Alachua, Florida
Posts: 8,647
Send a message via MSN to MalVeauX
Default Re: Razorbacks - an Analysis

Heya Charn,

Good write up so far. Good questions asked. Though aside from the obvious higher cost and weapon advantage, there's a stark disadvantage as well: lower maximum squad size. Only a squad of 6 models may take the Razorback. If you're looking to rush somewhere, rushing 6 marines at best is hardly a rush. 6 Marines are good for support, but are by no means going to hold under pressure at front lines, or during a leg race for objectives. Do 6 marines need a transport? Do people run 6 man teams with normal Rhinos? It requires a pretty big investment and some planning to really use 6 marines and an expensive "transport."

Here's my shortened version of an answer:

The razorback has the potential to be an awesome addition to small troop squads. Combined with the cleanse and purify trait, small plasma teams could be dropped off early and then leave the Razorback to act as a shield, and provide a gun-threat to the enemy, in the form of an easy to destroy tank. The razorback is not as survivable as the rhino, for one reason: rhinos typically use smokes right away. Razorbacks, unless they decide to act like a rhino, will rarely be launching smokes early on. Why pay for a lascannon if you potentially will never use it after first turn when you lose your tank right? Sure there's the ability to act just like a rhino, and thus be just as survivable, but the reality of having that gun changes how the tank is used, and because of that, no smokes are typically use on the first turn--but instead, are reserved for later turns, when it's stunned, for example. Unfortunately it's more likely to be penetrated and destroyed than to make it to a stunned position later in the game. On top of everything though, we're still talking about a transport which can only be purchased for 6 man teams of Marines. It's not like buying a gun boat for an 8 to 10 man squad, where we can drop them off up close and then if still alive, use the Razor as an extra gun. We simply cannot do this due to being limited to 6 marines.

Now as a light in favor of the Razorback, it can be insanely useful in larger games. Games where the the inefficient sum of 100~200 points is easily ok to not make a deal about. When you already had small squads of Marines and you want more potential, you can easily throw a Razorback in for them and have a mobile gun-boat wall. They practically act as 4+ cover save gun bunkers. That extra heavy bolter generally would only come from another force slot, but this way you can adjust and still fire that heavy bolter, and it allows that super-useful-and-widely-used 6man Las/Plas team to have Plasma, Lascannon and heavy bolter--the third perfect weapon in the arsenal. All in one team. That's pretty useful since you already had the marines. And in that sense, you're buying much more than a Rhino, because at that level of gaming, a Razorback shouldn't be a priority target anyways. So I definitely see it as something worth using at high point games, where it's inclusion isn't a limiting factor on the list.

Cheers!
__________________
[table][tr][td][/td][td][table][tr][td] [/td][td]Apocalypse is the only way to forty-kay.[/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table]
MalVeauX is offline  
Old 23 Jul 2006, 23:01   #4 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hertford, UK
Posts: 5,086
Default Re: Razorbacks - an Analysis

Well I've nothing further to add to all these excellant points, but I can tell you that I've had nothing but trouble fielding both Rhinos and Razorbacks. It's a rare thing for me when more than one vehicle of this type survives a battle. That said however, as transports, they have served their purpose. The mobility they offer more or less allows me to change my entire deployment after a turn or two of movement, giving my troops the edge over the enemy positions. They rarely survive beyond that though so I would have to say that a Razorback is entirely useless.

It fails as a battle tank due to the low armour, and fails as an Infantry Fighting Vehicle because it will almost never last longer than it takes to deliver the troops where they need to be. The other option is the mid-ground; advancing at normal speed, firing on the move. As far as I am concerned, this is just not an option with something so feeble. Land Raiders are fine...they can advance at normal speed just wading through everything and neutralizing threats on the way. But Rhinos and Razorbacks need to get where they're needed and drop their troops as fast as they possibly can because, for something with such paper-thin armour, destruction is only a heartbeat away.

Perhaps I'm wrong though; maybe I've only ever played against enemies with a talent for Rhino slaying?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel_Sanders
When all was finished, the battlefield was a smoking crater. UDC, Valoran, US Army, Tau, the Nazis, a random pirate ship, and a bunch of ninjas, all were enemies to the Vulture. All were turned into scrap metal. Or plastic. Depends which game system you play.
Tom Norman is offline  
Old 23 Jul 2006, 23:07   #5 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 414
Send a message via MSN to charn
Default Re: Razorbacks - an Analysis

Great responses so far, keep them coming.

That's an interesting point by Elessar - Razorbacks are rarely seen in fluff, despite embodying most things Marine. I can see them being used exactly as you described there, providing supporting fire with its heavy weapons while its passengers disembark. However, unfortunately it didn't translate into game terms as well as the Rhino did.

I can't believe that I failed to mention squad size as a disadvantage there, as raised by MalVeauX. It's obviously a pretty crucial factor, as it means that you can't simply take a Razorback with an 8-man squad, intending to never ride in it. In that sense, it is even moreso limiting as a battletank, and you may have to make sacrifices in your squads before getting access to them. But yes, I can see them being useful in larger games with las/plas squads as you described, and also for transporting / supporting small special weapon teams. Out of curiousity, what size of games do you play with your Razorbacks, and are they often targetted first thing by the enemy, or more as secondary targets?

To take Elessars street-fighting imagery a little further, what kind of Terrain, if any, favours the use of Razorbacks, perhaps more than Rhinos? Are they more useful in dense cityfighting terrain where long range anti-tank weaponry is limited? In those sort of scenarios, with infiltrators, sewers and closely packed streets, would the Predator's front AV 13 really make a difference vs. the Razorbacks AV 11, when they are all too often going to be hit on the side or rear, or by melta weapons or otherwise? Would the Razorback indeed make a cheaper, more expendable battle tank in this case? However again, due to the up-close nature of the fighting, is it wise to limit yourself to 6-man squads in a cityfight, or to commit to using long-range heavy weapons on vehicles?

Just more thoughts for debate, thanks so far guys!
charn is offline  
Old 23 Jul 2006, 23:18   #6 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Alachua, Florida
Posts: 8,647
Send a message via MSN to MalVeauX
Default Re: Razorbacks - an Analysis

Heya,

Well, I would consider Razorbacks at the 2,000 point level and above personally. As I said, because at that point, you can afford some waste (unless it's a tournament, in which case, the Razorback has zero place in that list for the time being unfortunately, though debatable).

In my opinion, Razorbacks are only good for their heavy bolter. Every other gun it can take, is better fielded by something else. Even then, the heavy bolter is better fielded on a land speeder. However, as mentioned, in a single force organizational chart, you can get a Lascannon, Heavy Bolter and a Plasma Gun with a Troop selection. That's pretty nice. You get your standard Las/Plas. You also get a mobile linked Heavy Bolter. The heavy bolter being standard, and not costing anymore points. It does the same kind of damage (slightly more) than a Land Speeder will do (standard land speeder). For slightly more points (well, 20 heh). But at a high point game, that's not a big deal. More room for Assault Marines or Bikes. Anyhow, heavy bolter Razors aren't a big priority in a large game, where there's plenty of lascannons in marine squads, assault marines, predators, etc. There's just too much that is far more crucial to get a head start on damaging than that Razorback. It usually can come to bite someone in the butt later for it, but focusing on the Razor's early game at that point level usually leads to a miserable battle for them (as the following turn has your whole force systematically removing his key elements).

Any other weapon will cause it to be fired upon, and cost a lot more points. That simply isn't worth while in my opinion. I'd rather them waste those shots on a cover saving marine or a tank with armor that has a good chance of evading the penetration role. Simple as that really.

The Razorback is not a battle tank in any sense of the word. Razorbacks are very much just a utility vehicle, much like a land speeder. Unfortunately, Razors are non-scoring and take a fair chunk of points. But again, in a large game, this can be an advantage if you stick to the heavy bolters.

Cheers!
__________________
[table][tr][td][/td][td][table][tr][td] [/td][td]Apocalypse is the only way to forty-kay.[/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table]
MalVeauX is offline  
Old 23 Jul 2006, 23:33   #7 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hertford, UK
Posts: 5,086
Default Re: Razorbacks - an Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charn
To take Elessars street-fighting imagery a little further, what kind of Terrain, if any, favours the use of Razorbacks, perhaps more than Rhinos? Are they more useful in dense cityfighting terrain where long range anti-tank weaponry is limited? In those sort of scenarios, with infiltrators, sewers and closely packed streets, would the Predator's front AV 13 really make a difference vs. the Razorbacks AV 11, when they are all too often going to be hit on the side or rear, or by melta weapons or otherwise? Would the Razorback indeed make a cheaper, more expendable battle tank in this case? However again, due to the up-close nature of the fighting, is it wise to limit yourself to 6-man squads in a cityfight, or to commit to using long-range heavy weapons on vehicles?
I play almost exclusively on jungle or city terrain. The only time I have ever played on an open battlefield was during an ad-hoc scenario devised by my brother an I: Entrenched traitor Guard were besieged from the woodline by an Imperial Fists strike force...but for that, I took no Rhinos or Razorbacks and instead fielded troops on foot to cross the open ground with three Whirlwinds to support them (bits of Guardsmen everywhere). I think the vehicles targetted first are largely dependant upon the enemy heavy weapons. Against a battery of autocannons, the AV11 vehicles are going to get it, but if he primarily brings lascannons and missile launchers then you can probably expect the AV13 vehicles to get targetted first.

My experience is limited to Imperial Guard and Eldar but I have found that the density of the terrain has little bearing on Rhino/Razorback surivability because, as transports, they're expected to close the distance with the enemy. Against Imperial Guard, this means you will inevitably have to drive those vehicles into the kill-zone of at least a couple of AT weapons (because a pure IG army has such weapons all over the place). Against Eldar, there's no hiding the vehicles either because Vypers, Wave-Serpents and Starcannon toting Falcons will just swoop in from the other side of the table, ignoring the terrain completely, and find a line of sight in moments.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel_Sanders
When all was finished, the battlefield was a smoking crater. UDC, Valoran, US Army, Tau, the Nazis, a random pirate ship, and a bunch of ninjas, all were enemies to the Vulture. All were turned into scrap metal. Or plastic. Depends which game system you play.
Tom Norman is offline  
Old 24 Jul 2006, 07:09   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 163
Default Re: Razorbacks - an Analysis

i have never actually used one (i just couldn't be stuffed going and buying one) but i think they could be usefull with a sniper squad. the problem with this is they forfet their infiltration abbility but with snipers that doesn't mean much. imagine this- 6 scouts with snipers and missile laucher hops in a tank and disembarks, next turn re-embark and go off into cover. unload scouts and shoot heavy bolter. continue blasting away (much death and destruction bwa ha ha ha ha. > )
in this scenario you prepare for oncomming fire by hopping out and everything works and a sizeable portion off the enemy will be dead by turn 4 but don't expect the razorback to last much longer than that
__________________
Their numbers are legion, their name is Death. if this is so, then why do they say in the necron codex that their numbers were dwindling almost to the point of extinction.



I scored a 6 on my powergaming test Yay................ ha
Betus Maximus is offline  
Old 24 Jul 2006, 09:00   #9 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 54
Default Re: Razorbacks - an Analysis

Can't speak for Codex:Space Marine armies, but as a Space Wolf player, I find the Razorback incredibly useful. Given that the Grey Hunter Squads are so small anyway, the loss of transport is not a problem, and the lack of heavy weapons in the army (since Long Fangs are too much for small games - 100pts for a sergeant and two devestator marines?) makes the razorback useful. It allows one of my Hunter squads to be mobile and support my mechanised Blood Claw squads, and the lascannon and plasma guns (have never used other weapon combinations) provide heavy weapons, which my army lacks.


Quote:
6 scouts with snipers and missile laucher hops in a tank and disembarks, next turn re-embark and go off into cover. unload scouts and shoot heavy bolter. continue blasting away (much death and destruction bwa ha ha ha ha. )
May be wrong but I wasn't aware scouts could take razorbacks, unless the new codex is different? I only check the codex when I need to check things for my Wolves codex. Also can you embark and disembark in the same turn? Don't have rule book with me.
bigwulfen is offline  
Old 24 Jul 2006, 09:06   #10 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 414
Send a message via MSN to charn
Default Re: Razorbacks - an Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigwulfen
Quote:
6 scouts with snipers and missile laucher hops in a tank and disembarks, next turn re-embark and go off into cover. unload scouts and shoot heavy bolter. continue blasting away (much death and destruction bwa ha ha ha ha. )
May be wrong but I wasn't aware scouts could take razorbacks, unless the new codex is different? I only check the codex when I need to check things for my Wolves codex. Also can you embark and disembark in the same turn? Don't have rule book with me.
You're right, scouts cannot take a transport. Neither can you embark and disembark on the same turn. Neither could you fire heavy weapons on the turn you disembark.

charn is offline  
Closed Thread

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Razorbacks? Daeghrefn Space Marines 11 07 Sep 2009 04:05
Anyone here know anything about Code Analysis? RonanB1011 Computers, Science and Technology 15 29 May 2009 17:16
Analysis of Spawn Deneris Forces of Chaos 19 18 Sep 2007 06:13
DH:tactical analysis cl.ryan sg-3 The Inquisition 17 08 Oct 2005 13:48
Rhino's and Razorbacks Cadian 11th Space Marines 11 21 Nov 2004 06:53