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Stuck in a rut, a losing rut
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Old 20 Jul 2006, 02:21   #1 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Stuck in a rut, a losing rut

Okay, so I have played a multitude of games with my custom Marines and have won only 3... one aginst an inexperienced Marine player... one against a mediocre Marine player and the final against an experienced Guard player who was taking a break from his Black Templars (This was only because I took Grey Knight Terminators in a 1k point game)... I am by no means whining in this topic, but simply asking what I am doing wrong, here are the details:

Chapter Traits:
Purity Above All
Trust Your Battle Brothers

Drawbacks:
Eye to Eye
Have Pride in Your Colors

I usually have a very Troopy army, consisting of 2 or 3 full Tac squads with the Apothecary having a power weapon/fist and a plasma/bolt pistol, respectively... I have recently started to use special weapons (plasma/melta guns) in my squads to some effect, depending on the army I face, I either assault or shoot... Deathwing=shoot... Khorne=shoot... IG=assault, you get the idea... My HQ is primarily a Librarian Epistolary with Veil of Time and a Plasma pistol with Artificer Armor, second is a Commander Master with a Power Fist and a Bolt Pistol in Artificer Armor... I only use the Commander in upper point cost games as the Librarian is usually sufficient... IF the mood strikes I take a Drednought with a Twin-linked Lascannon, Storm Bolter and CC Arm, if I have the points I Venerablize him... I have a Whirlwind that I only use against horde armies (I.E. Orks, Tyranids and IG) and have recently come into possesion of some Bikes that I used in one game, which they got owned, but were inexpensive... I know that I need more armor, I am thinking a Predator but don't know which one to use... Any suggestions?
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how can you be sure what you know is the truth if you haven't taken the time to ask yourself the questions that dispute it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Ead
Well we probably didn't figure out that decapitation resulted in death until someone lopped another guy's head off. And now people take care not to let sword waving lunatics near their neck
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Old 20 Jul 2006, 06:17   #2 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Stuck in a rut, a losing rut

Well looking at that I have one question, wheres the heavy support? Lots of troops and a good solid HQ but... big guns? Are these in your tac squads?

Heres the thing what you have really doesnt have much of a problem if any. But all armies can benefit from something that has the sole task of firing off big guns. A predator is nice but armor is only useful when you have at least 3 armored things like dreadnaughts, rhinos, predators etc. Otherwise the enemy can easily concentrate on the little armor you have and blow it apart before it can do anything. Also an all infantry army works just fine. Theres nothing that says you must take tanks. All infantry marines can be nasty, many armies have trouble simply killing tons of marines.

Id suggest a couple things, devastators, these can work really nicely. An attack bike I believe you can purchase with a bike squad so it would keep within the limits of your traits but can add a nice mobile heavy weapon. Terminators with assault cannons can also add some punch to an infantry formation and soak up some damage.

Also an assault squad, some of your problem I imagine is getting blasted up before you reach the enemy. An assault squad can help by tying up the enemy while the rest of the army closes. Just make sure to keep them out of sight of the enemies big guns and massed firepower until their in position to charge. Marines are tough but even guardsmen with lasguns can take them out if there are enough of them.

All that said can you say any specific problems your having. The above advice is assuming what the issue is and that may not be the case. The more information you provide the better we can help you.
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Old 20 Jul 2006, 09:45   #3 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Stuck in a rut, a losing rut

Hey Terminatus,

Could you provide us with a sample army list that you would use, and give us an indication of the points level of the games you play? Tell us where you think your army is falling down - and also tell us how what you did to win those 3 games. As Vash says, the more information we have, the better we can help you.

From what I can see however, your army is composed of alot of quite expensive units - one you kit out a couple of 10-man squads with an Apothecary w/ Power Fist & Plasma Pistol, and give them all True Grit, you are using a bucketload of points on "extras", instead of on more scoring units. Now this isn't as bad in higher point games (2000+), but in an 1000 or 1500 point game, you should be spending most of those points on more squads. For example, the Apothecary in every squad is expensive, and not worth his points if you intend to get into close combat quickly - more marines are simply better.
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Old 20 Jul 2006, 12:36   #4 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Stuck in a rut, a losing rut

Thanks for the advice so far, guys... I completely forgot about Assault Marines, and I do have a Dev squad, I forgot to mention it (4 lascannons)... Here's a few sample army lists


1k points
Librarian-
Plasma Pistol
Veil of Time
Artificer Armor
180 points

Tactical Squad x3
10 Marines
Apothecary-
Power Sword
Plasma Pistol
Trust Your Battle Brothers
230 Points

Dreadnought
Assault Cannon
Heavy Flamer
Extra Armor
120 Points

1.5k Points
Same as above, first dreadnought is made Venerable and given Furious Assault

Grey Knight Squad
10 Marines
Psycannon
325 Points

Dreadnought
Lascannon
Missile Launcher
135 points

2k Points
Same as above, plus another Tactical Squad

Grey Knight Terminators
5 Marines
Psycannon
362 Points

That's basically it... Sometimes I use the Grey Knights at a lower pointe level, which has won me one game aginst the Guard player... What I took against the mediocre Marine player that I beat was a list similar to the 2k point one, I think it might have been 2.5k game though, so maybe the GK HQ with my Terminators and a Dev squad instead of the fourth troop... I am wondering, since I have troopy army, should I use the Command Squad? Help is appreciated...
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R.I.P Guv :'(

How can you be sure what you know is the truth if you haven't taken the time to ask yourself the questions that dispute it?



how can you be sure what you know is the truth if you haven't taken the time to ask yourself the questions that dispute it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Ead
Well we probably didn't figure out that decapitation resulted in death until someone lopped another guy's head off. And now people take care not to let sword waving lunatics near their neck
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Old 20 Jul 2006, 13:36   #5 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Stuck in a rut, a losing rut

Hey,

Two things about the lists which strike me immediately:

1 - Very expensive models and squads. As I said earlier, there are too many extras in there, which just don't cut it point-for-point.

2 - Totally lacking in anti-tank (although is this perhaps because your opponents do not field many vehicles?).

Lets take a more detailed look at the 1k list:
[hr]

[HQ 1] - Librarian - Very, very expensive for what he does. I'd demote him to an Codicier, give him 'fear of the darkness', and let him ride along with one of the Tactical squads.

[Elites 1] - Dreadnaught - This is the only vehicle in your army, and as such is likely to be dropped fairly quickly. Weapons are short range, so he'll need to footslogg towards the enemy before he can use them. To be honest, a predator destructor with heavy bolter sponsons is slightly cheaper, and far more effective.

[Troops 1, 2,& 3] - Tactical Squads - These squads appear to be heavily geared towards close combat. However, they have no way of making to close range quickly. I'm skeptical that the Apothecaries are worth their points, as their nartheciums do not work when engaged in combat. The plasma pistol points would be better spent on a plasma / melta gun for the squad. I would also serisously consider removing the 'Trust your Battle Brothers' thing from these squads - it really works better in a defensive role, and the points saved can go into buying you something else.

I would also consider varying the roles a little. Reduce the number of marines in the squads, and get more squads or an Assault Squad. Use some for long range support, others for close support.


Applying those changes, we could come up with something like this:
[hr]

[size=8pt]HQ 1 - Codicier @ 105 pts
- Force Weapon
- Fear the Darkness

Elites 1 - Veteran Squad @ 123 pts
- 6 Veteran Space Marines
- Tank Hunters
- Lascannon

Troops 1 & 2 - Tactical Squads @ 218 pts each
- 7 Space Marines + Sergeant
- Meltagun
- Veteran Sergeant
- Power Fist

- Rhino
- - Extra Armour
- - Smoke Launchers

Fast Attack 1 - Assault Squad @ 206 pts
- 8 Assault Marines
- Veteran Sergeant
- Power Fist

Heavy Support 1 - Predator Destructor @ 110 pts
- Heavy Bolters

Total : 1000 pts[/size]

[hr]
This list is more tactically flexible. Your two tactical squads can race towards the enemy in their rhinos (firing smoke launchers), with the Assault squad using the vehicles as cover. The Predator can provide supporting fire on the move, either targetting vehicles with its lascannon or mowing down infantry with its heavy bolters. The tank-hunting veteran squad can target vehicles from afar with its effectively S10 lascannon. The codicier can ride along in a rhino with one of the tactical squads, using his Fear of the Darkness power to scare off 'guard heavy weapons teams and the likes. The Power fists in each squad will rip through MEQs - although you may want to just take Power weapons when fighting Imperial Guard.

At higher points, your list can basically just extend on this one, adding more tank-hunting veteran squads, or tactical squads. Perhaps upgrading the codicier to an epistolary, or giving him a command squad. Maybe get some landspeeders, or a dreadnaught, whirlwind or another predator.

What do you think? Or were you looking for something a little different?
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Old 20 Jul 2006, 13:48   #6 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Stuck in a rut, a losing rut

Thank you for your advice, but the thing is, I have TYBB so that I don't have to be the one to charge to get the extra attacks... I have the Apothecary so if I get shot at on my way to shooting position or assault range, I don't take as many casualties, and I believe the Apothecary power works if he isn't in base to base... Although I porbably should take Vet Squads

It would go something like this:
Veteran Squad
10 Marines
Apothecary
Power Fist (SGT)
Power Fist
Power Weapon
270 points
__________________
R.I.P Guv :'(

How can you be sure what you know is the truth if you haven't taken the time to ask yourself the questions that dispute it?



how can you be sure what you know is the truth if you haven't taken the time to ask yourself the questions that dispute it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Ead
Well we probably didn't figure out that decapitation resulted in death until someone lopped another guy's head off. And now people take care not to let sword waving lunatics near their neck
Terminatus is offline  
Old 20 Jul 2006, 14:04   #7 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Stuck in a rut, a losing rut

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terminatus
Thank you for your advice, but the thing is, I have TYBB so that I don't have to be the one to charge to get the extra attacks...
Yes, TYBB is decent in a defensive manner - it's really the expense that goes with it, which is more promenant in small battles like these. In 1500, 2000 point battles it doesn't matter so much, but I'd at least leave it out in 1k points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terminatus
I have the Apothecary so if I get shot at on my way to shooting position or assault range, I don't take as many casualties, and I believe the Apothecary power works if he isn't in base to base...
Again however, its just 'extras'. If you add apothecaries into that list I gave above, what needs to come out to facilite them? The predator? Drop some Assault Marines? Neither is worth dropping for an expensive character upgrade. And no, the Narthecium does not work in close combat at all. We had a discussion about that on this board a while ago. Again however, at larger points, when 25-30 points isn't 3% of your total, these things can come in handy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terminatus
Although I porbably should take Vet Squads
Seriously dude... 270 points on a 10 man squad? Veteran Marine close combat weapons are totally overpriced, and to use them you really need a rhino or something. Not worth it at all. However, small, tank-hunting Veteran squads with lascannons are perfect for taking down vehicles.


Really you need to come up with a balance between wargear / 'extras' and models / squads. The extras just go to waste if you take too many of them, and are a waste if you don't have enough models to back them up. More models are a waste if you have no specialist wargear or weaponry. We also need to keep our squads at a reasonable price. Some things just look good on paper, but, as you are discovering, aren't worth it in practice.
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Old 20 Jul 2006, 15:03   #8 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Stuck in a rut, a losing rut

ok, so I see your point with the omission of TYBB in small games, but I'm not too fond of the Vet Squad idea... Why would I pay 18 points a Marine that doesn't get any benfit from a normal marine except for different choices? "Because they're the perfect tank hunting squad" just doesn't do it for me... I'd rather pay 22 points for an Assault Marine Squad that I could jump around with if I needed it, but that's where the Rhino comes in, right?

Vet Squad
10 Marines
Lascannon
Melta Gun
Tank Hunters
Rhino
255 points

Assault Squad
10 Marines
Melta Bombs
Plasma Pistols
250 Points


The Assault squad may not have as much anti-tank ability, but doesn't get stuck if their Rhino is destroyed, but I suppose that's where the Lascannon range would come int, and it might also be wiser to take a plasma gun instead of a melta gun for the extra range, but then there's overheating (one of the reasons why I take an apothecary, now I realize I should be taking plasma guns in my Tac Squads). The reason there are som many Marines is simple: Cannon Fodder... I realize that the Assault Marine squad has 22 point cannon fodder, but it can move around quickly and doesn't have any anti-tank dedicated troops, as one with a lascannon would be, and if I needed more, I could pump up the price to 280 and have a SGT with a powerfist... What is your opinion? Perhaps I need a new trait, one that more fits my style of play? Maybe I should just be really broken and have my traits be Scions of Mars and Heed the Wisdom of the Ancients so I can have 6 Dreadnoughts ans 2 Techmarine HQs?
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R.I.P Guv :'(

How can you be sure what you know is the truth if you haven't taken the time to ask yourself the questions that dispute it?



how can you be sure what you know is the truth if you haven't taken the time to ask yourself the questions that dispute it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Ead
Well we probably didn't figure out that decapitation resulted in death until someone lopped another guy's head off. And now people take care not to let sword waving lunatics near their neck
Terminatus is offline  
Old 20 Jul 2006, 15:26   #9 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Stuck in a rut, a losing rut

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terminatus
ok, so I see your point with the omission of TYBB in small games, but I'm not too fond of the Vet Squad idea... Why would I pay 18 points a Marine that doesn't get any benfit from a normal marine except for different choices? "Because they're the perfect tank hunting squad" just doesn't do it for me...
Veteran squads can take the tank-hunting ability, when combined with a lascannon means it is effecively S10 instead of S9. That makes quite a difference when you roll to see if you glance / penetrate vehicles. Regular Tactical Squads obviously can't take the Tank-hunter skill without a special trait advantage. However, if you are content with using S9 lascannons in tactical squads instead, go for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terminatus
The reason there are som many Marines is simple: Cannon Fodder... I realize that the Assault Marine squad has 22 point cannon fodder, but it can move around quickly and doesn't have any anti-tank dedicated troops, as one with a lascannon would be, and if I needed more, I could pump up the price to 280 and have a SGT with a powerfist... What is your opinion?
Marines don't really need that much 'cannon fodder'. And more, smaller squads is usually better than fewer, large squads. More squads allows you to spread yourself out more easily, means more scoring units, and means that if one squad is held up in combat by scarab swarms or fails morale, you aren't losing as large a chunk of your manpower. The general rule I go by in small games is that long-range shooty squads should have 6 men, close-combat squads should have 8. I find that 10-man squads are just 'bloated' - I like spreading my guys around a bit more. And you have just as many men whether you stick them in 3 10-strong squads, or 5 6-strong squads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terminatus
Vet Squad
<chop>
Long-range lascannon and hyper-short-range meltagun in the same squad isn't good. Either one or the other will probably be inactive for most of the game. Meltaguns are best on small, dedicated Tactical Squads with rhinos, or close combat squads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terminatus
Assault Squad
<chop>
Plasma pistols are useful for busting MEQs just before a charge, but I would drop this squad to 8 guys, and use the points saved to buy Veteran Sergeant with Power Fist. Power Fist is vital against MEQs to gain the upper hand, not so much against guardsmen however - the extra two men would probably be better.


However, it's really up to you to try out all these things and see what works best for yourself. This advice generally works for me, with my style, against my opponents, but yours could be totally different.
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Old 20 Jul 2006, 15:50   #10 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Stuck in a rut, a losing rut

That actually makes sense (sorry for blowing up at the end of the last post)... I hadn't thought of spreading my forces, to me Marines were Marines no matter where I put them... Perhaps this helps?

Tac Squad
6 marines
Apothecary
Plasma Pistol
Power Weapon
Plasma Gun
TYBB
178 points

(You must think I'm retarded for not wanting to let go of the Apothecary, but if I have plasma, I might need him)
I have the TYBB for if they get assaulted, or I might just move up while blasting plasma at foes and then assault with that power weapon I bought... Personally, I think this is a marginal improvement over the last Marine squad... but if I have it this way, maybe Furious Assault would be better?

On the note of the Assault squads...

Assault Squad
8 marines
Power Fist
Plasma Pistol x2
216 points

Better? I dropped 2 Marines so I could fit the Power Fist and i was thinking of giving him a plasma pistol, but then i decided that if he overheated and failed his save, I'd be F+cked (see, I'm not a total idiot ) If I gave them all, except the SGT, Melta bombs it would come out to 230 points...
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How can you be sure what you know is the truth if you haven't taken the time to ask yourself the questions that dispute it?



how can you be sure what you know is the truth if you haven't taken the time to ask yourself the questions that dispute it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Ead
Well we probably didn't figure out that decapitation resulted in death until someone lopped another guy's head off. And now people take care not to let sword waving lunatics near their neck
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