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1k list - Iron Hands
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Old 16 Jul 2006, 05:38   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default 1k list - Iron Hands

Galvan's Command
1,000 points Space Marine Army



Iron-Commander Galvan [HQ] @ 145 pts
- Servo Harness
- Iron Halo
- Bionics
(Upgraded to 3W; May not take any Commanders)

Venerable Dreadnought Cyprius [Elite] @ 153 pts
- Assault Cannon
- Missile Launcher
- Tank Hunter
- Extra Armor
- Smoke Launchers

Tactical Squad Fauro [Troops] @ 130 pts
7 Space Marines
- Lascannon
- Plasma Gun
(Led by Iron-Commander Galvan)

Tactical Squad Adaman [Troops] @ 145 pts
8 Space Marines
- Lascannon
- Plasma Gun

Scout Squad [Troops] @ 108
6 Scouts
- 4x Sniper Rifles
- Missile Launcher
- Bolter (Sergeant)

Landspeeder Squadron [Fast Attack] @ 150
Landspeeder Tornado
- Assault Cannon
Landspeeder Typhoon


Vindicator [Heavy Support] @ 163
- Extra Armor
- Smoke Launchers
- Power of the Machine Spirit


Total Points: 994
Total Models: 26

[hr]

Just trying something a bit different than my usual Infantry-based list. Now, I understand that the Techmarine is a bit expensive and I have been toying with the thought of removing his Servo Harness, but I am unsure at this point. The Iron Halo/Bionics are necessary, if only for reasons of fluff.

Another thing I am unsure of is the Assault Cannon/ML combination; perhaps I could remove the Power of the Machine Spirit on the Vindicator and add twin-linked Lascannons to the Dreadnought. I have only ever used Power of the Machine Spirit in a larger game and it came in handy, however with points being precious at this size battle, I am in need of some advice.

Lastly, I have never used a Landspeeder Typhoon and am quite curious about it's effectiveness. If many of you see it as ineffective, perhaps I can drop it and bulk up on one of the Tactical Squads and give the Tornado a multi-melta.

Any opinions/feedback would be greatly appreciated. Cheers and thanks in advance! ;D

IF
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Old 16 Jul 2006, 06:03   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: 1k list - Iron Hands

Galvan's Command
1,000 points Space Marine Army



Iron-Commander Galvan [HQ] @ 145 pts
- Servo Harness
- Iron Halo
- Bionics
(Upgraded to 3W; May not take any Commanders)

Might I reccomend dropping the Bionics? I have never seen them be that helpful, particularly not at 1,000 points with an Iron Halo. You could replace it with a Storm bolter, or the fun combination of auspex/frag grenades/krak grenades. IDK, if you think that they will work, by all means take them but thats 5 less points to spend anywhere else. For the time being lets take the bionics away, there is your first 5 points.

Venerable Dreadnought Cyprius [Elite] @ 153 pts
- Assault Cannon
- Missile Launcher
- Tank Hunter
- Extra Armor
- Smoke Launchers

This argument has been raised before and I used to "bling" out my dreads too. The extra armor probably won't help you. He is either dead and not shooting or alive and not shooting no matter whats rolled on the glancing chart. Lets take off the extra armor.
I guess that you could make a slight case for the smoke launchers but I wouldn't take them. You run into the same problem as with the extra armor, if your dreads not shooting, then he's not helping. If you use the smoke launchers then you lose the ability to shoot, and thats bad becuase you dread has 2 guns and is built to shoot. The only reason that I can think of to take this would be the close range of the assault cannonand I just don't think that that's a good enough reason not to shoot. The weapons look ideal. Now we have 13 points to spend.


Tactical Squad Fauro [Troops] @ 130 pts
7 Space Marines
- Lascannon
- Plasma Gun
(Led by Iron-Commander Galvan)

I would not take the Lascannon/Plasma Gun with a pistol toting commander(Your HQ). This weapon combo is designed to shoot and CC and/or movement doesn't allow for shooting. Maybe try the squad without the Lascannon, that way the whole squad can shoot all of the time. Now we have 28 points to spend if I am not mistaken.

Tactical Squad Adaman [Troops] @ 145 pts
8 Space Marines
- Lascannon
- Plasma Gun

Looks good, although I would probably take a missile launcher. More versatility but then again that is pure personal opinion.

Scout Squad [Troops] @ 108
6 Scouts
- 4x Sniper Rifles
- Missile Launcher
- Bolter (Sergeant)

The sarge needs a CCW/B Pistol or another sniper rifle. I would take the sniper rifle becuase I love them. You might give him an auspex too. OK, so after giving the sarge an auspex and sniper rifle we are at 21 points left to spend. If the sarge is not a veteran sarge then we are at 23 points and lacking the auspex. Lets presume that the sarge is not a vet sarge.

Landspeeder Squadron [Fast Attack] @ 150
Landspeeder Tornado
- Assault Cannon
Landspeeder Typhoon

Looks great, I only have one question. Why are they together? Their ranges and function would normaly dictate that they be in seperate squads. I would personally take them seperatly.

Vindicator [Heavy Support] @ 163
- Extra Armor
- Smoke Launchers
- Power of the Machine Spirit

Tom Norman may try to kill me for asking this but why? Why would you take a vindicator with this force? Its not a fast force and its not a close combat oriented force so when will the Vindicator ever make its points back? I would probably take off the smoke launchers on the vindicator if I even kept it. Same as with the Dreadnought, if its not shooting then its not helping. I would actually like to replace it with 2 whirlwinds. That ought to scare the crap out of your opponent.

All of this is just opinion so take it with a large grain of salt, but there is my review. Overall, it looks like it needs some work but is an excellent start .

Steel Skeleton


Total Points: 994
Total Models: 26

[hr]

Just trying something a bit different than my usual Infantry-based list. Now, I understand that the Techmarine is a bit expensive and I have been toying with the thought of removing his Servo Harness, but I am unsure at this point. The Iron Halo/Bionics are necessary, if only for reasons of fluff.

Another thing I am unsure of is the Assault Cannon/ML combination; perhaps I could remove the Power of the Machine Spirit on the Vindicator and add twin-linked Lascannons to the Dreadnought. I have only ever used Power of the Machine Spirit in a larger game and it came in handy, however with points being precious at this size battle, I am in need of some advice.

Lastly, I have never used a Landspeeder Typhoon and am quite curious about it's effectiveness. If many of you see it as ineffective, perhaps I can drop it and bulk up on one of the Tactical Squads and give the Tornado a multi-melta.

Any opinions/feedback would be greatly appreciated. Cheers and thanks in advance! ;D

IF
[/quote]
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Old 16 Jul 2006, 08:39   #3 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: 1k list - Iron Hands

Quote:
Might I reccomend dropping the Bionics? I have never seen them be that helpful, particularly not at 1,000 points with an Iron Halo. You could replace it with a Storm bolter, or the fun combination of auspex/frag grenades/krak grenades. IDK, if you think that they will work, by all means take them but thats 5 less points to spend anywhere else. For the time being lets take the bionics away, there is your first 5 points.
Dually noted, however, playing an Iron Hands force, I feel that for a mere five points, I can keep the commander fluffy, as all Iron Hands absolutely hate the flesh, and over time, replace them with bionics. Supposedly the older they get, the more bionics they have, becoming more machine than man. I'd like to keep the bionics, if only for fluff.

Quote:
This argument has been raised before and I used to "bling" out my dreads too. The extra armor probably won't help you. He is either dead and not shooting or alive and not shooting no matter whats rolled on the glancing chart. Lets take off the extra armor.
I guess that you could make a slight case for the smoke launchers but I wouldn't take them. You run into the same problem as with the extra armor, if your dreads not shooting, then he's not helping. If you use the smoke launchers then you lose the ability to shoot, and thats bad becuase you dread has 2 guns and is built to shoot. The only reason that I can think of to take this would be the close range of the assault cannonand I just don't think that that's a good enough reason not to shoot. The weapons look ideal. Now we have 13 points to spend.
Interesting and points well made; I will definitely put major thought into this.

Quote:
I would not take the Lascannon/Plasma Gun with a pistol toting commander(Your HQ). This weapon combo is designed to shoot and CC and/or movement doesn't allow for shooting. Maybe try the squad without the Lascannon, that way the whole squad can shoot all of the time. Now we have 28 points to spend if I am not mistaken.
The Techmarine is equipped with bolter, power weapon, signum, auspex, two servo-arms, a twin-linked plasma pistol and a flamer. I was thinking that because my force is a shooty list, that perhaps he could blast away with his bolter until the enemy come within range, where his other close-ranged weapons might do more harm. I am thinking about taking a ML in one of the squads, thereby replacing a Lascannon, but I'm still not sure. I really enjoy Lascannon death.

Quote:
The sarge needs a CCW/B Pistol or another sniper rifle. I would take the sniper rifle becuase I love them. You might give him an auspex too. OK, so after giving the sarge an auspex and sniper rifle we are at 21 points left to spend. If the sarge is not a veteran sarge then we are at 23 points and lacking the auspex. Lets presume that the sarge is not a vet sarge.
I am really using the scout squad as fire-support, which is why I chose not to give him CCW/BP, although I will definitely consider giving him another sniper rifle.

Quote:
Looks great, I only have one question. Why are they together? Their ranges and function would normaly dictate that they be in seperate squads. I would personally take them seperatly.
Honestly, I'd like to know if they still count as ONE squadron even if I separate them. I don't really use Landspeeders all that much, so I don't know. If they don't count as one squadron, then I can't do it, as the Iron Hands suffer from the "Eye to Eye" disadvantage (Sorry, probably should have said that before :-\).

Quote:
Tom Norman may try to kill me for asking this but why? Why would you take a vindicator with this force? Its not a fast force and its not a close combat oriented force so when will the Vindicator ever make its points back? I would probably take off the smoke launchers on the vindicator if I even kept it. Same as with the Dreadnought, if its not shooting then its not helping. I would actually like to replace it with 2 whirlwinds. That ought to scare the Klkn out of your opponent.
Touche. Our local GW store has a lot of Marine players (I'd say 8/10) and I was thinking that this might help, but maybe not?


I really appreciate the feedback Steel and it has got me thinking about a few changes in the list already, thanks
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Old 16 Jul 2006, 13:37   #4 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: 1k list - Iron Hands

Hey Iron Father,

[HQ 1] - Iron-Commander Galvan - I'd take this guy without a servo-harness, unless you want it for fluff reasons, or you're likely to be fighting tough, assaulty armies to justify the extra attacks offered by the harness. Otherwise, he looks good. With his "Blessing of the Omnisiah" rule, he can keep that lascannon and plasma gun firing.

[Elites 1] - Venerable Dreadnaught - Keep him as is, the lascannon will force his points up even more. I disagree with Steel Skeleton on the Extra Armour and Smoke Launchers - Extra Armour is mandatory in ensuring the survival of your dreadnaught. If he is stunned, you want to be able to move out of next turns shooting. Smoke Launchers are also amazingly useful if you are caught out out in the open shaken, pop them to ensure enemy shots next turn can only glance.

[Troops 1 & 2] - Tactical Squads - Look good, although (if you can afford the points) I'd drop the squads to 6 men each, and get more of them.

[Troops 3] - Scout Squad - Looks great - again, if you can afford it somehow, give the sergeant a sniper rifle.

[Fast Attack 1] - Landspeeder Squadron - Landspeeders rock, however Typhoons really aren't great. Drop both the typhoon and tornado, and just take 2 speeders with heavy bolters. These guys are fast, have a range of 36'' (to keep out of small arms fire), are scoring, and provide your army with some much needed dakka. Unfortunately, with the Eye To Eye disadvantage, you will need to keep them in the same squadron (meaning they cannot be split up).

[Heavy Support 1] - Vindicator - Another gamble, sometimes these things will just flop, sometimes they will work brilliantly. Personally, I would drop this vehicle and buy more tactical squads or even a devastator squad. Whirlwinds are good too though (as are Predators).


Let us know what changes you will make.
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Old 16 Jul 2006, 17:46   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: 1k list - Iron Hands

To Charn

[Iron-Father Galvan] - For fluff purposes, the commander should have a servo-harness I belive. Regular Techmarines can have them and this one is a venerable addition, hence why he is leading the force. However, I am not so sure about the mixed roles. This guy is much better at very short range and CC than shooting and the bolter just dosen't help him enough. Also, if you refrain from attatching him to a unit then he is much better protectewd by his IC status. As soon as he joins that squad he loses the IC status. You could put him beind Tactical Squad 1 and let him be a Anti-Assault unit, just an idea.

[Venerable Dreadnought] - I have to say that the traditional weapons combo of Lascannon/Missile Launcher w/ the Tank Hunters skill is great for busting super heavy armor. I mean come on, how much more can you need other than 1 Str 9 shot and 1 Str 10 shot(Both from 48"!)? Unfortunatly that lacks versatility. The Missile Launcher and the Assault Cannon can do multiple things very well and are quite the force to be reckoned with.
However, I must repeat myself in saying that having a shooter thats not shooting isn't helping you. Are you telling him to plan around his dread being shot down and living? If he uses the smoke launchers then he doesn't shoot that turn and can still possibly be destroyed. Then in the enemies next turn he just stands there and allows them to get closer! With the extra armor, the same rule applies. If he gets shot and he can't shoot, then how is he helping the army? Do you really think that a possible 6" move is going to get him out of the chasm he would already be in? Chances are that if he is in somebody's LOS and range, a 6" move is only going to take him out of the frying pan and into the fire(sorry about the cliche). Unless of course, the player misjudged the distances in the first place and can move 2 inches back to not get shot?

[Tactical Squad 1] I would change this Tactical Squad to be a Missile Launcher/Flamer squad. I have a thing against Plasma Guns. The 24" range and rapid fire sections in their stat lines bug me. I think that, for what else can go in their place, they just don't cut it. If you really want plasma you could always take the plasma cannon as a heavy weapon. I say take the Flamer because you don't have any CC prowess(aside from their natural "smurfiness" ) so if somebody gets close you want as many of them dead as possible. A Flamer is just a bolter with a flame template and the assault characteristic. So for example your unit could make their last stand before CC and put out 1 Str4 Ap6 2" template, 1 Str4 Ap5 flame template, and 10 Str4 Ap5 shots. Thats presuming a 7 man unit with the enemy less than 12 inches away. That ought to hurt them where as the Plasma gun has a chance to hurt you! I would most definetly leave this as a 7 man squad though.

[Tactical Squad 2] I would make this a 7 man unit and leave the Las/Plas combo. This can be the hind end of your force and be the last shooting line of defence.

[Sniper Squad(Scouts)] - An auspex can really show its value in this kind of unit, partcularly if the unit infiltrates. However, that requires you to buy the Veteran Seargent upgrade. If you don't want to spend that many points then at least give him another sniper rifle. More snipers can always be a good thing >.

[Fast Attack 1] - I had completly forgotten about the "Eye to Eye" disadvantage, sorry about that. Keeping this in mind I would say take one of the following squad combos; 2 AC/HB Tornados, 3 HB Land Speeders, 2 MM/HF Tornados, or 2 HB Land Speeders w/ 1 MM Land Speeder. All of these combos can do similar things, just some things are done better. Also, some will attract more attention than others. I love my Typhoons but not in mixed squads. I would either take a dedicated unit of them or not take them at all. With the "Eye to Eye" disadvantage, that means that I wouldn't take them at all.

[Heavy Support 1] - IMHO, the Vindicator has got to go. This force will probably not get close enough to use it, if I am reading it correctly. If this force is close enough to the enemy to use this tank then something has gone wrong. Again all of this is my own opinion and subject to my interpretation of the list, so take it with a grain of salt. I would have suggested a Predator Annihalator with Lascannon sponsoons but that was too many points. He dosen't need a Predator Annhilator with HB sponsoons because its a fire magnet and hes already got enough AT strength in my opinion. But he could use some more anti-infantry and the Whirlwinds are perfectly suited for that. Besides, with the "Stand Back and Shoot" approach presented by this list, they can stay there and protect the Whirlwinds anyways.

More of my babbling opinions. Sorry my posts are so long, they can't be too fun to read :.

Steel Skeleton
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Old 16 Jul 2006, 18:16   #6 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: 1k list - Iron Hands

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steel Skeleton
[Iron-Father Galvan] - For fluff purposes, the commander should have a servo-harness I belive. Regular Techmarines can have them and this one is a venerable addition, hence why he is leading the force. However, I am not so sure about the mixed roles. This guy is much better at very short range and CC than shooting and the bolter just dosen't help him enough. Also, if you refrain from attatching him to a unit then he is much better protectewd by his IC status. As soon as he joins that squad he loses the IC status. You could put him beind Tactical Squad 1 and let him be a Anti-Assault unit, just an idea.
Frankly, I think he should be kept as cheap as possible, and simply used mainly to ensure the lascannon keeps hitting, or the plasma doesn't overheat. The massive amount of points used to buy the servo harness should be used somewhere else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steel Skeleton
[Venerable Dreadnought] - ...
However, I must repeat myself in saying that having a shooter thats not shooting isn't helping you. Are you telling him to plan around his dread being shot down and living? If he uses the smoke launchers then he doesn't shoot that turn and can still possibly be destroyed. Then in the enemies next turn he just stands there and allows them to get closer! With the extra armor, the same rule applies. If he gets shot and he can't shoot, then how is he helping the army? Do you really think that a possible 6" move is going to get him out of the chasm he would already be in? Chances are that if he is in somebody's LOS and range, a 6" move is only going to take him out of the frying pan and into the fire(sorry about the cliche). Unless of course, the player misjudged the distances in the first place and can move 2 inches back to not get shot?
Extra Armour and Smoke Launchers are both invaluable upgrades to ensure that the dreadnaught can survive for as long as possible, and get as many shots in as possible.

Supposing that your dreadnaught is sitting at a decent range away in a fire support role, and is stunned. He cannot shoot anyway, so are you suggesting that it would be better for him to just sit there, totally unprotected for the enemy to take another shot at next turn?

If equipped with Extra Armour, the dreadnaught (who cannot shoot this turn anyway) can potentially hide behind the forest he is sniping behind, so that the enemy cannot shoot him next turn. Then on your next turn, he can simply come out of his hiding place and shoot again. If he had not have hidden, he may have been stunned or shaken again (or worse). Smoke Launchers are useful when the dreadnaught has no hiding place to get to. He can simply pop off the smokes, and only risk glancing hits instead of penetrating hits. If you presume that I meant for the smoke launchers to be used when the dreadnaught was perfectly capable of firing, you are wrong.

Venerable dreadnaughts are only safer than ordinary dreadnaughts due to the fact that they are more likely to suffer "Crew Shaken" or "Crew Stunned" than more severe results. Extra Armour and Smoke Launchers further minimizes the potential damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steel Skeleton
... or 2 HB Land Speeders w/ 1 MM Land Speeder.
Mixing Heavy Bolters and Multi-meltas isn't a great idea. You shoot at tanks, you waste the heavy bolter shots. You shoot at hordes, you pretty much waste the multi-melta. Also, to use the multi-melta, you need to be within small arms range. Bolters and pulse rifles are landspeeders worst enemy.
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Old 16 Jul 2006, 19:17   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: 1k list - Iron Hands

As someone who has used techmarines as commanders numerous times, I agree w/ Charn. The Techmarine doesn't fill the roll of a force commander very well, and as such should be kept cheap.
IMO, the techmarine should be left in the elite slot, as he is more like a decked out sergeant than a commander.
As far as fluff goes, there is nothing preventing you from using a Chaplain as an Iron father. After all, Iron Fathers are chaplains too; and the Chaplain is cheaper, has better stats, has a more defined role, and fills his role better.
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Old 16 Jul 2006, 19:19   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: 1k list - Iron Hands

I would really like to try and keep the Servo Harness but the more and more I think about it, the points gained from dropping it can be invaluable. Perhaps I could drop the Iron Halo off of him and just keep him back to ensure that he keeps his unit shooting smoothly. However, without him being decently equipped, I'm not sure who will be able to take out those monster Characters that our gaming group is known to take.

Also, I was thinking about dropping the Vindicator for a Devastator Squad, equipped with four MLs. If this is done, would it be more effective to keep the Techmarine with them? The only thing I like about the Vindicator is its ability to kill Marines, of which most of my opponents will be. In our local store we have two Blood Angels players; one of which brings a tooled up Chapter Master with a crapload of Power Weapon toting Honor Guard with Jump Packs, and the other uses two Chaplains and brings as many Death Company as possible, again with Jump Packs. The idea was to drop S10 pie-template death on them, but perhaps concentration of firepower will work just as effectively.

After I get a few of these questions worked out, I'll make sure to put up the revamped list. Thanks for all the advice so far guys, keep 'em coming! 8)

IF
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Old 17 Jul 2006, 13:31   #9 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: 1k list - Iron Hands

A dev squad with 4 ML will be harder to kill than the Vindicator and will probly rack up more MEQ kills over a game, In my SM army i use a VIndicator WW and devs with 4ML and they all work really well together, but thats 1.5k.

I really cant see your HQ making anywere near its points back its shooting isnt that great and its not that great in CC yet its costing the same as a Preditor with full lascannons.

Seperate your landspeeders so they cant be all killed by a single unit and it also allows then to spread there fire at the right targets.

If your dreads the only Armour you have in your army it wont last that long as ever anti-tank gun will focus on it, ever though about a drop pod for it. It would allow it to get close to there tanks where the AC will work best also they wont be able to shoot it before its in range. Drop pod dreads are also great for messing up opponents plans and counter attacking.
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Old 17 Jul 2006, 14:29   #10 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: 1k list - Iron Hands

Quote:
Originally Posted by xXxt0mxXx
A dev squad with 4 ML will be harder to kill than the Vindicator and will probly rack up more MEQ kills over a game, In my SM army i use a VIndicator WW and devs with 4ML and they all work really well together, but thats 1.5k.

I really cant see your HQ making anywere near its points back its shooting isnt that great and its not that great in CC yet its costing the same as a Preditor with full lascannons.

Seperate your landspeeders so they cant be all killed by a single unit and it also allows then to spread there fire at the right targets.

If your dreads the only Armour you have in your army it wont last that long as ever anti-tank gun will focus on it, ever though about a drop pod for it. It would allow it to get close to there tanks where the AC will work best also they wont be able to shoot it before its in range. Drop pod dreads are also great for messing up opponents plans and counter attacking.
I'm pretty sure we've already covered this, xXxt0mxXx, but the Iron Hands have the eye to eye trait which means they can take only one Landspeeder squadron.

I wouldn't risk drop-podding a Dreadnought all on its own...especially a shooty Dreadnought with no close support, that just makes no sense.
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