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effective scouts
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Old 05 Jul 2006, 03:32   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default effective scouts

As some of you know, I'm starting somewhat of a raven guard force (a successor chapter actually) so I have one question:
What are the most effective scouts other than sniper scouts? And what are some of the configurations you guys use most often?
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Old 05 Jul 2006, 03:41   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: effective scouts

10 guys, vet serge with a power-fist.

For a mere 158pts, you get a HUGE unit (by marine standards) that can infiltrate, has all the same stats as a marine save the save, and there's a hidden powerfist in there, also giving the squad Ld9.

This unit is disgusting in combat, and in non-infiltrating missions, a very cheap chaplain (reclusiarch with a bolt pistol, that's it!) is great to go with these guys!

Even better, have this 10 man unit use the sewer rats strategem to cause a good amount of mayhem for few points for what you get!

I'm also a big fan of a lot of shotguns, but that's because my Tau hides in 4+ cover ALL the time, and I'd rather force a tonne of saves on him, hopefully bag that Shas'ui before I charge in.

Sure Bolt Pistols do more damage in the long run, but shotguns have the added bonus that can't be measured in points efficency.

Forcing armour saves!!

That's HUGE in this edition! Say there's a 6 man chaos squad with an icon bearer in it and you know 100 bloodletters are going to pop-out of it.

Instead of trying to tie it up in combat, and possibly failing miserably, you could tie it up in combat, but try to force an armour save on that one guy (shouldn't be too hard, law of averages have a good chance of getting 6 wounds, even if not, kill a couple more from plasma!).

Bolters inside hard cover are another nice unit, because you basically get a marine squad without the plasma gun, in that you have a nice strong fire-base that's almost always going to get a 4+ save!

9 Bolters with a Heavy Bolter or a Missile Launcher is great, considering you save 20pts overall!


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Old 05 Jul 2006, 21:16   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: effective scouts

Why don't you take Bolt pistols and CC weapons? They would be beasty in an infiltrating unit;

+1 charge
+1 two cc weapons
+1 normal

Thats three attacks each, including a vet sarge, thats over thirty attacks, against say tau, pretty devastating. It'll cause real havoc behind their lines, what you want to do is move into one squad in one turn, from say your cover 12" away, fire 10 bolt pistols, and you can do the maths
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Old 05 Jul 2006, 21:29   #4 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: effective scouts

Space Marine Scouts are the unsung heroes of the Adeptus Astartes, often leading the Chapter into battle with minimal armour and weaponry. Scouts have a special weapon, sniper rifles, and special abilities, infiltrate and move through cover. This makes Scouts a useful supplementary force in a Space Marine army. However, Scouts wear carapace armour and so are more fragile than Space Marines in power armour. Scouts are very vulnerable to shooting with AP 4 weapons. Here I have given some examples of different Scout squads:

Close Combat Scout squad: 158 points
- 9 Scouts with bolt pistol and close combat weapon
- Veteran Sergeant with power fist and a bolt pistol

A heavy weapon can be given to the squad for the chance that you will have to sit and shoot. The heavy weapon is not that very expensive. This Scout squad outfitted for close combat is a cheap unit that may complement a Space Marine army geared towards close combat. The squad is able to quickly engage enemy units thanks to the Scouts special abilities. However, the squad is rather vulnerable to shooting and also not very durable in close combat. Therefore, in close combat, it needs to be backed up by another close combat unit like an Assault squad. Frag grenades can also be given to the squad when fighting on a board with a lot of terrain.

Fire support Scout squad: 132 points
- 7 Scouts with bolters
- Veteran Sergeant with power fist and a bolt pistol

A heavy weapon can be given to give the squad some more heavy firepower. A Scout squad with bolters is a cheap firepower unit complementing a Space Marine army geared towards assault. The squad can be in rapid fire range early in the game thanks to the Scouts special abilities. Scouts remain scouts so they still will have a 4+ save which is not that good. I find that a normal Tactical squad is a better choice. If you want Bolters go the easy way, go the Tactical way. Still this squad is quite a bit cheaper than a Tactical squad but they really lack the heavy and special weapons the Tactical squads get to pick from.
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Old 05 Jul 2006, 21:48   #5 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: effective scouts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anberlin
Thats three attacks each, including a vet sarge, thats over thirty attacks, against say tau, pretty devastating. It'll cause real havoc behind their lines, what you want to do is move into one squad in one turn, from say your cover 12" away, fire 10 bolt pistols, and you can do the maths
Actually, against Tau, Scouts are pretty lousy assault troops. Contrary to popular belief, Scouts can never get a first turn assault by infiltrating (unless the enemy moves towards your unit). Even if no enemy can see them, your infiltrators can deploy anywhere more than 12'' away. Because you can only cover 12'' with your movement and charge, you cannot get into combat on turn 1 via infiltrating in this way.

Now, in that single turn where you are out in the open, or even in cover, your scouts are hideously vulnerable. They will die very quickly to Tau shooting at that range, and weapons like missile pods and railgun submunition just tear through them with horrible efficiency. Before you know it, the squad is out of the game.

Against most other armies, it is a similar story. Most either have the shooting power to deal with scouts before they can get into combat, or have the assault power to actively seek combat themselves, and win. It's best to keep the scouts what they are truly good at - sticking to cover at long range, and using missile launchers, heavy bolters and sniper rifles to pick off and pin down key targets. Infiltrate to get the best position along a flank, or set up in an adjacent table quarter to get a line of sight to a vehicles side armour, or an enemy command squad.

If you do bring Scouts geared for assault however, you need some kind of support - Tactical squads, bikes or deep-striking Terminators to name a few options. In an assault role, scouts are simply better at tying up enemy squads in combat until the real close combat troops get there.
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Old 05 Jul 2006, 23:09   #6 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: effective scouts

Yup, that's what the book says, more than 12 inches. Most people don't care as long as your 12, so you usually can get away with this, well in my area you can, they mostly play for the fun of it, witch the book also says is a very important rule.

The thing about deploying 12 inches though, their out sight. So their not as vulnerable as you say they are. The oponent will have to move to see you, that might bring them in range of your first turn assalt (if your going second), or make them move a unit closer to your main army, and for a army like Tau, that's usually not a good thing.

Mostly your not going to get a first turn assalt with your scouts, but be smart with them and you'll get a 2nd turn assalt untouched.
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Old 05 Jul 2006, 23:36   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: effective scouts

Quote:
Originally Posted by kreative
The thing about deploying 12 inches though, their out sight. So their not as vulnerable as you say they are. The oponent will have to move to see you, that might bring them in range of your first turn assalt (if your going second), or make them move a unit closer to your main army, and for a army like Tau, that's usually not a good thing.
Hammerhead could zoom 12'' around the side of whatever they are hiding behind, and blast them. Battlesuits may be able to jump 6'' to see a few of them, then jump back. And that's only first turn. They have to come out some time, and then they'll be in the open for everyone to hit. Better to just keep them hidden all the time, and use long-to-mid range weaponry to support your other troops.
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Old 06 Jul 2006, 11:01   #8 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: effective scouts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aarhus
Say there's a 6 man chaos squad with an icon bearer in it and you know 100 bloodletters are going to pop-out of it.

Instead of trying to tie it up in combat, and possibly failing miserably, you could tie it up in combat, but try to force an armour save on that one guy (shouldn't be too hard, law of averages have a good chance of getting 6 wounds, even if not, kill a couple more from plasma!).
You know you can't actually force armour saves on any model in partcular from shooting? The Vindicare Assassin can, but he's the exception. Am I overlooking something here? Is there a rule I'm not aware of?

[hr]

Tauman5263, if you take a look at the 'Shotguns and Bolt Pistols - A breakdown' thread, there's a mathematical comparison between those two weapons.
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Old 06 Jul 2006, 11:09   #9 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: effective scouts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Norman
You know you can't actually force armour saves on any model in partcular from shooting? The Vindicare Assassin can, but he's the exception. Am I overlooking something here? Is there a rule I'm not aware of?
The "Torrent of Fire" rule, or whatever it's called. Basically if you cause more wounds on a unit than there are models in the unit, you can elect for a single model to make a single saving throw, before your opponent makes the rest of his saving throws.

It's explained on page 26 of the Rulebook.
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Old 06 Jul 2006, 11:14   #10 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: effective scouts

Well, personally, I take a 5 man scout squad, two men with shotguns, two men with bolt pistols and close combat weapons, and a veteran sargeant with a power weapon and bolt pistol.

I found this combination to be absolutely deadly in cityfight. I playtested that squad against my IG in a cityfight battle.

First, they held a streetcorner by firing twice with the bolt pistols, then blasting a two shotgun blast at the enemy. That caused 6 Guardsmen to die then meaning the IG ran away.

Secondly, they entered a room held by a Fire Support Squad with heavy bolters, and they wiped them out by shooting their bolt pistol's once, firing the shotguns, then letting the power weapon and close combat weapons clean up.

Great fun!

Although, you have to remember that it's your army, and ultimately it's up to you to decide what you want your army to look like.
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