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Devs and Bikes, 1850pts
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Old 01 Jul 2006, 03:47   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Devs and Bikes, 1850pts

Spectre Lance 1850pts
Be Swift as the Wind, Honour Your Wargear, Aspire to Glory, Die Standing
(Bikes as Troops, Devs as Elites and Heavy) (Limited Terminators, no Relics, no Drop Pods)

HQ
Epistolary
Force Weapon/Storm Shield, Might/Fury Artificer Armour, Bike
189pts

Elites
Elite Devastator Squad
Eight Marines, Missile Launcher x4, Tank Hunter
224pts

Elite Devastator Squad
Eight Marines, Missile Launcher x4, Tank Hunter
224pts

Techmarine
Plasma Pistol/Power Weapon, Full Servo Harness, Bionics
120pts

Troops
Bike Squadron
Six Marines, Attack Biker w/Heavy Bolter
Veteran Sergeant Powerfist
240pts

Bike Squadron
Six Marines, Attack Biker w/Multi-Melta
Veteran Sergeant Powerfist
255pts

Heavy Support
Devastator Squad
Eight Marines, Plasma Cannon x4
260pts

Devastator Squad
Eight Marines, Heavy Bolter x4
180pts

Vindicator
Power of the Machine Spirit, Smoke Launchers
158pts

1850pts


C&C always welcome!

Cheers,
Lawrence.
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Old 02 Jul 2006, 11:37   #2 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Devs and Bikes, 1850pts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anberlin
hw are the marines in tghe elites section elites, aren't they just troops?
Devastator squads are Heavy Support, however with the "Honour your Wargear" trait advantage, you can take them as elites - so long as they take a veteran skill.

Overall, a decent list, however there are a couple of things that I reckon could be improved:

[HQ1] - Epistolary - Expensive, but that can't really be avoided for an effectively-T5, 2+ save Librarian on wheels. I would consider getting rid of the "Fury of the Ancients" power, as any time spent not in combat should be spent turbo-boosting (if possible) towards the enemy, in which case you cannot shoot anyway.

[Elites 1 & 2] - Devastators - Again, expensive. Even though you have a 4-man buffer before you start losing missiles, I wouldn't expect that to last too long in large games like this. I would recommend that if you drop the Techmarine (see below), replace these with three 6-man squads with 2 missiles each. This spreads out your guns a little bit better I think, makes each squad less of a tempting target, and means you can choose your targets better (3 shooting squads instead of just 2).

[Elites 3] - Techmarine - Why a Techmarine? This guy is a waste of points in my opinion - he's expensive, slow, and is using up a valuable Elites choice. The only vehicle you have in the army is a Vindicator, but without any Technical Servitors, the chances of fixing any problems are slim. I would recommend that you drop this guy and use his points elsewhere, unless you have a specific or fluffy reason for using him.

[Troops 1 & 2] - Bike Squadrons - Beautiful. No problems here - my only gripe would be that there aren't enough squads like this.

[Heavy Support 1] - Devastators - Plasma cannons are hideously expensive - however they can be worth it in some situations. If you know that you will be facing tightly packed, tough troops (necron warriors, death guard etc..) then stick with them. However, any opponent worth his salt who catches a whiff of AP2 blast templates will space his models out to minimize casualties. In that case it would simply be better to go for 4 missiles or even lascannons. And again, due to the expense, it might be preferable to split the weapons up - put them into tactical squads instead.

[Heavy Support 2] - Devastators - Heavy bolters aren't too expensive, and aren't generally top on the enemies priority list, so this squad should probably be alright.

[Heavy Support 3] - Vindicator - Again, unless you are playing armies with lots of low armour saves and very little anti-tank, this really isn't worth it. It just doesn't "fit in" with the rapid, lightning fast attack theme of the bikes. Personally, I'd get rid of this and use its points (combined with other saved points) to buy more of either bike squads, tactical squads, landspeeders or a predator.

Thoughts?
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Old 02 Jul 2006, 12:16   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Devs and Bikes, 1850pts

theres alot of devastators in there when you look at it properly
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Old 02 Jul 2006, 12:21   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Devs and Bikes, 1850pts

Why a techmarine? Simple, Put him in one of the devastator squads and watch that squad get twice as good. A lot of people forget the signum, and that hes an independent character so...

Ok, I'll draw the line. Devastator Squad A fires a Krak Missile. Krak Missile misses its target. Techmarine says " Go ahead and try that again." This time the Krak Missile hits. Big Explosion, tank goes boom, Everyone is happy (except your opponent).

It's a lot of points just to join him to a devastator squad, but betweem the one reroll a turn and the Techmarine just being a general Bad@$$, it usually is more than worth it. Personally I would join him to the devs with the Plasmacannons though....

Also by taking a lot of devs per squad he is giving those units enough ablative wounds to make sure the unit fires at full efficiency, where as your suggesting lose firepower so that the units won't look that intimidating. His opponents are going to have 2 full bike squads, a Librarian on a bike and a vindicator to worry about. Target priority for most opponents will be those first. Trust me, his Devastators will survive a lot longer than you think.

Overall a good list and very interesting. I think I'll have to try it sometime.
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Old 02 Jul 2006, 14:05   #5 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Devs and Bikes, 1850pts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Howloutloud
Why a techmarine? Simple, Put him in one of the devastator squads and watch that squad get twice as good. A lot of people forget the signum, and that hes an independent character so...

Ok, I'll draw the line. Devastator Squad A fires a Krak Missile. Krak Missile misses its target. Techmarine says " Go ahead and try that again." This time the Krak Missile hits. Big Explosion, tank goes boom, Everyone is happy (except your opponent).

It's a lot of points just to join him to a devastator squad, but betweem the one reroll a turn and the Techmarine just being a general Bad@$$, it usually is more than worth it. Personally I would join him to the devs with the Plasmacannons though....
Sorry, I forgot about about the signum. Even so, still not worth it at 120 points. The full servo-harness is obsolete if he is joining a long-range devastator squad, as is the plasma pistol (I assume this is a plasma pistol in addition to the harness). Bionics again is pretty void, as he shouldn't be able to be targetted anyway. Cut him down to his base cost, and then he may be worth his points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Howloutloud
Also by taking a lot of devs per squad he is giving those units enough ablative wounds to make sure the unit fires at full efficiency, where as your suggesting lose firepower so that the units won't look that intimidating. His opponents are going to have 2 full bike squads, a Librarian on a bike and a vindicator to worry about. Target priority for most opponents will be those first. Trust me, his Devastators will survive a lot longer than you think.
Depends on your opponent of course. Mech Tau for one, are only going to seriously care about those bikes, the librarian, and the heavy bolters when their transports are shot down - something they are going to try to prevent. Top priority for them is going to be to get rid of the devastators. Same applies to many vehicle heavy armies. Now, the 6 missiles in the squads that I proposed should survive longer, and hence get more shots throughout the game than those massive 4x missile squads. More small squads are simply more effective in most circumstances than few large squads - more scoring units, and if you lose one for some reason, or one cannot shoot, then you are only down 1/3 of your firepower.

With both ways of taking them, the enemy needs to chew through 4 men before you lose missiles. With 4 missiles in each squad, next 4 casualties will all be missiles - expensive, rewarding and tempting for your opponent. 4 Marines are not as difficult to kill as some people would like to think. 8 men down, and you've lost 1/2 of your firepower. With the way I proposed, the enemy must get through 11 men (and some of those in different squads) before you lose 1/2 of your firepower. Granted, there is less firepower overall, but over the course of the game it should balance out. Looking at it from a mathhammer point of view, where you don't take into account mission objectives, victory points, scenery, range, LOS and being charged by scarab swarms, 8 missiles in 2 seperate squads are going to out-perform 6 missiles in 3 seperate squads. However, when you take those things into accout, 3x2 missiles should do better.

The point is mute anyway if the Techmarine is being kept. Personally I would be getting rid of the Techmarine and Vindicator, and buying another Bike Squadron with a Multi-melta. I'm just telling you what works for me, which is just as dependant on how your opponents play as how you play. If large devastator squads work for you, then by all means use them.

Let us know how it works out.
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Old 03 Jul 2006, 01:21   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Devs and Bikes, 1850pts

The techmarine has the servo-harness and the pistol because forces WILL come to me.

Should a unit make it to my firing line, the Techie steps up as an assault/counter assault unit. He also gets 2 plasma pistol shots before charging/being charged to really soften things up. With 4 power weapon attacks, and just in case, 2 power fist attacks, this is an insurance for when my lines are charged (pesky tyranids/chaos. I should find some points for an invul for this guy, actually...)

I will not reduce my squad sizes. I refuse.

Small squad sizes is one of the worst things in my opinion. More break tests faster (and they're Ld8 dude...), less bodies means more armour saves forced on those critical heavy weapons (which is bad. REALLY bad. Watch me make armour saves and you'll know what I mean).

And yes, the techmarine IS going to join the Plasma Cannon squad, to nullify that pesky 1 to overheat (and my club does allow that to ignore having to take an armour save.)

Also, there's no mech tau in my area. There's one guy I know who's even half decent with his Tau army and even then, he's bloody frightening. It isn't Mech at all either. He has no warfishies, in fact, his only devilfish is for his pathfinders with 8 markerlights.

What terrifies me about him is that he'll have about 15 markerlights facing up against this list.

Pinning check at Ld3? C'mon!


Also, the Cannons are in there for something that cannot be measured in points efficency.

Scare tactic. Everyone's afraid of 4 plasma cannons. Enough to space their models wayyyyy out. When they do this, it means they'll have to take difficult terrain checks all too often, which is verry, verry good for me.

Even better, people forget about it sometimes, and will bunch 'em together!

I was lucky a couple times and was able to get 2 and 2 partials four times (we all agree that place template, multiply by no. of templates is the way to go, we're not all crazy-hard-on-by-the-BBB types, besides, old habits die hard) and obliterated the 12 slaanesh terminators in one go.


One thing, I WILL NOT drop any of my squads to less models than they are now. If it were 1000pts, I'd have no qualms about doing so. But I need every body on the table I can get.

I'm even considering of taking a cheapo 91pt master to hold down the Ld10 fort.


Cheers,
Lawrence.
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Old 03 Jul 2006, 09:29   #7 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Devs and Bikes, 1850pts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aarhus
I will not reduce my squad sizes. I refuse.

Small squad sizes is one of the worst things in my opinion. More break tests faster (and they're Ld8 dude...), less bodies means more armour saves forced on those critical heavy weapons (which is bad. REALLY bad. Watch me make armour saves and you'll know what I mean).
Perhaps you didn't understand what I was proposing. Supposing you dropped the Techmarine, you could take three units of 6 Space Marines, with 2 missile each, instead of 2 units of 8 Space Marines with 4 missiles each.

Just as many break tests will have to be made for losing 1/4 or more of your men. Lose 1 man, neither squad must make a test. Lose 2 men, both squads must make a test. With 3 squads however, one failed test will not affect you as much as if you only had 2 squads. And in fact, with 3x6 marines, there are more bodies there than with 2x8 marines. And you need to lose just as many men before missiles start dropping off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aarhus
What terrifies me about him is that he'll have about 15 markerlights facing up against this list.

Pinning check at Ld3? C'mon!
Again, actually more reason to take more, smaller squads. 15 Markerlights spread between 2 squads is going to be far worse for each than 15 markerlights spread between 3 squads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aarhus
One thing, I WILL NOT drop any of my squads to less models than they are now. If it were 1000pts, I'd have no qualms about doing so. But I need every body on the table I can get.
If you're keeping the Techmarine, it's irrelevant anyway. Stick with 2x8.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aarhus
I'm even considering of taking a cheapo 91pt master to hold down the Ld10 fort.
It would be well worth it.
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Old 03 Jul 2006, 14:10   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Devs and Bikes, 1850pts

Hum, I like the list. I personally would drop the Vindicator because its not fitting and it will be killed quickly. I would drop it and use the points to buy yourself a master on a bike w/ a power weapon. Pop it into the other squad and that way you have Ld. 10 all over the board. Thats great because your worried about having to fail Ld. tests.
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