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8 marines 2 plaz guns works of heretics trait= tank hunters?
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Old 28 Jun 2006, 04:24   #1 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default 8 marines 2 plaz guns works of heretics trait= tank hunters?

I was playing around with some new unit ideas.
Do you think that an 8 man tactical squad armed with 2 plazma guns
(cleanse and purify) and the suffer not the works of heretics trait could be a decent tank hunting squad. I understand they would not be able to take on the front armor of a Russ or any side of a LR and get more than a lucky glancing hit. But, rapid at rapid fire range you are looking at 12 st5 shots and 4 st8 shots. Look out light to medium vehicles! Not to mention the ability to move and then shoot. This would also be a good unit against infantry, and I do understand that the +1 bonus only applies to vehicles.Let me know what you think. I am considering replacing the laz cannons(2) and the missile launchers(4) in my tactical squads with plazma guns.
Thanks.
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Old 28 Jun 2006, 05:35   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: 8 marines 2 plaz guns works of heretics trait= tank hunters?

Well, in answer to your question, it could be a decent tank hunting squad. I would however suggest taking meltas instead, even higher strength, and gets the melta bonus. Sure you get way more shots when shooting plasma guns, and you also get a longer range, but in your example you talk about rapid-firing, witch would be enough range for a melta.

The thing I have against plasmas is the chance of over heat, especially in your example of rapid firing. Most people say, oh well, my marines have a 3+ save, they can make it, but take another saying, that goes something like "make them roll enough dice and they'll die", with overheat you'll be making yourself roll even more dice. I don't think it's worth losing 28 (marine 15, plasma 10, tank hunters 3) points to your own gun. I think you would rarely make up it's points unless you kill a tank, or it had a big effect on the battle in your favour. Then again, I havn't really played with either weapons that much, I'm just judging on what I've seen from playing people and watching people play.

So overall, I personally suggest taking either 2 meltaguns, or a meltagun and a plasma gun if you want the range. Too bad you can't take purity above all with the plasmas . Tho on anouther point, if it;s fluffy to take plasmas for your chapter, use them all the way.



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Old 28 Jun 2006, 09:48   #3 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: 8 marines 2 plaz guns works of heretics trait= tank hunters?

Mathematically, Plasma guns with the Tank Hunters skill have an 89% probability of scoring a penetrating hit against AV10 (taking into account both shots) decreasing in steps of 22% as the AV value is increased. A Melta gun at short range with the same skill starts at 67% but doesn't really have much drop off, bottoming out against AV14 with a probability of 56%.

However outside of 'melta range' the plasma gun outperforms the Meltagun against AV10 and 11, performing equally against AV12 and falling short against higher armour values, where the meltaguns higher strength and fearsome AP value compensate for the single shot.

A Meltagun at short range, however, is almost as deadly with strength 8 as with strength 9, there's actually not much in it.

So in conclusion, Meltaguns are my choice of tank killing tool, but you're absolutely right about engaging lightly armoured vehicles with upgraded plasma...they're Speeder and Rhino killers.
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Old 28 Jun 2006, 15:15   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: 8 marines 2 plaz guns works of heretics trait= tank hunters?

Quote:
Originally Posted by greensmurf
I was playing around with some new unit ideas.
Do you think that an 8 man tactical squad armed with 2 plazma guns
(cleanse and purify) and the suffer not the works of heretics trait could be a decent tank hunting squad. I understand they would not be able to take on the front armor of a Russ or any side of a LR and get more than a lucky glancing hit. But, rapid at rapid fire range you are looking at 12 st5 shots and 4 st8 shots. Look out light to medium vehicles! Not to mention the ability to move and then shoot. This would also be a good unit against infantry, and I do understand that the +1 bonus only applies to vehicles.Let me know what you think. I am considering replacing the laz cannons(2) and the missile launchers(4) in my tactical squads with plazma guns.
Thanks.
It depend what you plan on shooting.

Chaos has been using Plasma for anti-tank for a long time, because we get two plasmas without the need of traits, etc. Slap on tank hunters, and they're Str8. Then slap on Infiltration (a popular squad found in alpha legion) and you have a first turn tank hunting unit. And our havocs can get 4 plasma guns, allowing for serious damage, be it a vehicle or infantry type.

Translate that into Space Marines and it doesn't work the same. It's not so easy to get both tank hunters and infiltration. Veteran squads can do it, but it's a bit more tricky when it comes to the normal tac marines.

However, if you want to try it, think about what you're shooting.

Heavy Armored Vehicles, A13+ - Don't bother shooting these with tank hunting plasma. You'll burn yourself before you ever get good chances of glancing. If you can't hit them first turn anyways, they're going to be a severe danger to whatever squad you're talking about. Most high armored vehicles have guns that will blast your marines back to the training camp. There's really no substitute for melta and lascannon action here. Your tank hunting plasma is no better than a single missile launcher. The difference being you have to get up close to do it and if you're moving, you're burning and not guaranteed to even arrive to said vehicle at 12 inch rapid fire range, even with a rhino hull under your feet.

Skimmers. Now skimmers are another matter. Skimmers tend to always move fast and skimmers are glance only typically. So that's where lascannons, meltas and missiles start to be less and less useful for anti-tank in a big way and instead, the trend will be far more in the favor of multiple glances. Tank hunting plasma is very good at causing multiple glances to A10~12. So your tank hunting plasma is a great tool for chasing down a nasty skimmer and spraying it with some new color.

Anyhow, up to you. Plasma will work great against skimmers who are glance only anyways. But they just don't do the job that a lascannon does in the heavy armor department. The range and the unreliability of you getting close enough without the vehicle just moving away will have a vehicle not being touched for over 3 turns easily, and costing you many casualties or tons of other variables in the game, just because you were chasing it instead of downing it turn one with a trust lascannon.

If you want to do it for a theme-sake, then there's no point discussing it. It obviously will work since it's str8 and it can effect any vehicle and unit in the game (exception: it cannot touch a monolith, ever). But if you are looking at it to know if it will do well, not just work, then consider it light-duty only and consider it a resort for supplemental anti-tank, and not your core of anti-tank.

Cheers!
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Old 28 Jun 2006, 16:43   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: 8 marines 2 plaz guns works of heretics trait= tank hunters?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Norman
Mathematically, Plasma guns with the Tank Hunters skill have an 89% probability of scoring a penetrating hit against AV10 (taking into account both shots) decreasing in steps of 22% as the AV value is increased. A Melta gun at short range with the same skill starts at 67% but doesn't really have much drop off, bottoming out against AV14 with a probability of 56%.

However outside of 'melta range' the plasma gun outperforms the Meltagun against AV10 and 11, performing equally against AV12 and falling short against higher armour values, where the meltaguns higher strength and fearsome AP value compensate for the single shot.

A Meltagun at short range, however, is almost as deadly with strength 8 as with strength 9, there's actually not much in it.

So in conclusion, Meltaguns are my choice of tank killing tool, but you're absolutely right about engaging lightly armoured vehicles with upgraded plasma...they're Speeder and Rhino killers.
how do you work out the parcentages?

as I always say;

forget the plasma,
give away your blaster,
its better to have tanky fun,
with a melta gun

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Old 28 Jun 2006, 21:33   #6 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: 8 marines 2 plaz guns works of heretics trait= tank hunters?

Thanks everybody for your input. Tom, you are brilliant with the statistics.
It is a theme thing. I have equipped 2 such squads, and another with the melt guns. The army includes 3 dreads ( 3 AC, 2 heavy flamers, 1 Missile) and 3 Predators (2 destructors with HB sponsons 1 annihilator with LC sponsons) in a 2000 pt game. at 1500 I mix and match tanks and dreads based on the opponent and the terrain.
All of my troops choices are in transports ( to keep up with the tanks and give mechanized infantry that look I wanted), and there is a tornado( AC HB) thrown in just because like them. the last unit is an assault squad to accompany the captain. I wanted my tactical squads to deal with the light armor and elite troops while the big guns concentrate on the big targets. I needed units able to shoot on the move after they disembark. I replaced 2 missiles and a laz cannon with the extra plazma guns and the melt gun. Thanks again for your help, I think the tactical squads will do exactly what I want them to.
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Old 29 Jun 2006, 09:30   #7 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: 8 marines 2 plaz guns works of heretics trait= tank hunters?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anberlin
how do you work out the parcentages?
(Armour Penetration probability X To-Hit probability) X Shots fired

When you're dealing with 2D6 armour penetration, it gets a little more complex though.
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Quote:
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When all was finished, the battlefield was a smoking crater. UDC, Valoran, US Army, Tau, the Nazis, a random pirate ship, and a bunch of ninjas, all were enemies to the Vulture. All were turned into scrap metal. Or plastic. Depends which game system you play.
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Old 30 Jun 2006, 23:18   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: 8 marines 2 plaz guns works of heretics trait= tank hunters?

Quote:
Originally Posted by greensmurf
Thanks everybody for your input. Tom, you are brilliant with the statistics.
It is a theme thing. I have equipped 2 such squads, and another with the melt guns. The army includes 3 dreads...
I'm glad to see you've taken my rhyme seriously, the last kid who didn't went missing :shifty:
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