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Deathwing (all terminator army) can they be really good?
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Old 25 Jun 2006, 22:41   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Deathwing (all terminator army) can they be really good?

I've just got the new Dark Angels codex and the Deathwing army look perty dope. I've heard that they are rather easily beat on the table though. Any advice on how to make a really good deathwing army?
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Old 26 Jun 2006, 00:27   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Deathwing (all terminator army) can they be really good?

They are a lot harder to use than your average marine, and with Lysander of the Imperial Fists around a lot of people are going with the Lysander wing (just waiting for Tom to jump in on this one). They are, however, one of the armies that I have had the most fun with...ever.

Simple starting points, first: don't take landraiders in less than a 1500 pt battle, maybe not even in a 2000 pt game.

second: dreadnoughts are cool, but be aware that your opponent will be doing everything in their power to blow them up right away.

third: the numbers game. everyone has a disagreement over wether to take five man squads or six man squads. the reason being the five man one can use drop pods, which are a lot more relient than deepstriking. but a six man squad has an extra wound that must be taken off before they are considered at less than half strength. whichever you decide is best for you one thing is certain. no one wants to field the full ten man squad (except me of course, but then again I do have some mental deficiencies)

fourth: with four shots and rending every one wants to take the assault cannon, and I agree for 75% of your army. the thing is that rending roll that you need to get for certain things is just too capricious to count completely on. thats why I always take at least one unit with 2 missile launchers. the added range and the ability to crack a landraider without having to rely on rending (thats technically a lie, they both need a six to glance, the rending just has to roll again and not get a one to do it) is worth taking a few of them.

fifth: under no circumstance do you use a Terminator assault squad, unless you are willing to put them into a Land Raider Crusader. and if you do that then the obligatory chaplain must join the unit (trust me, its worth it) you might also want to buy them furious assault.

overall the deathwing is a lot of fun, quit challenging, and the best at what it does (again looking at you Tom Norman )
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Old 26 Jun 2006, 01:07   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Deathwing (all terminator army) can they be really good?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother-Captain Zoren
I've just got the new Dark Angels codex
?
I think you mean the 3rd ed one, as the new one isn't out yet.

Other than that, what HowlOutLoud said pretty much sums it up.
it'll be a challenge, but a fun one
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Old 26 Jun 2006, 13:19   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Deathwing (all terminator army) can they be really good?

Deathwing is overrated. If you're happy to deep strike and drop pod all over the place in an unreliable slapdash fashion or march a legion of Terminators across the battlefield soaking up fire as they go, then Deathwing is fine. But if you're in love with the idea of Teleporting in your entire Terminator contingent in one go with terrifying precision then the 'Lysander wing', as Howloutloud calls it, is perfect.

Marines have a different interpretation of siege warfare to the Imperial Guard. For Space Marines, siege warfare doesn't mean pounding the enemy position from thirty Ks away; it means deploying in force from orbit, right on top of the enemy and turning them to mush in close quarters. The Imperial Fists specialise in siege warfare. It's in their fluff and it's reflected in the rules for their special character, Lysander. With him, you make just one reserves roll for all the Terminators in your army, re-rolling if necessary, and teleport them as one. Combine that with scouts with teleport homers (as your troops choice) and a Damocles command rhino (teleport beacon) and you've got an army that deploys suddenly all over the table and destroys all the enemy's vehicles in one fell swoop (teleport into that vulnerable rear armour quarter and they don't stand a chance)! If ever there has been a 'shock and awe' tactic in 40k, this is it!
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Old 26 Jun 2006, 15:37   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Deathwing (all terminator army) can they be really good?

I have over 3000 points of deathwing sitting in my house. I played them for quite awhile but here is the rub - sooner or later you will get bored with them. Once you have learned how to play them games go along fairly predictable paths. They can win and win often. Never underestimate terminators. I don't think Deathwing is overated, BTW, because most veterans feel they are a difficult and weak army. If anything they are underated because Lysander Wing is more of as power gamer's army. That said, there is nothing better when a DW force of 25 models slowly decimates an force that outnumbers them 3 or 4 to 1.
Lysander Wing is a stronger list but so what. The point of DW is that they have limitations that good tactician must overcome.
Now about the list itself - we will debate 5 or 6 maqn squads ad nauseum. I personally use five man squads to get an extra unit in if I can.
The only deepstriking I generally use is with a Dread IN A DROP POD. If you talk to DW vets they almost all walk their terminators up table. DSing is dangerous. A CML squad becomes golden because of this - the added range is great as I need a turn to get my ACs in range.
I always use a Libby with fear and fury. I love this guy.
I almost never use my LR or LRCs anymore. I used to like most who start DW.
I then discovered like other veterans that more terminators are infinately better.
Now I do have a LR Prometheus - if I want to be tricky will field it and DS some termies with teleport homers.It is a great tank overall. But the truth is that unless playing at 2000 points you just cannot take it.

Everone has their idea of an army they want to play. I've no problem with Lysander Wing, Plague Wing, Rage Wing, Lust Wing or Dust Wing. All have their srong points. Deathwing is fo the dedicated player looking fo a unique army that will take time to master.
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Old 26 Jun 2006, 15:57   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Deathwing (all terminator army) can they be really good?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bebe
I don't think Deathwing is overated, BTW, because most veterans feel they are a difficult and weak army. If anything they are underated because Lysander Wing is more of as power gamer's army.
Sorry, bud. I just meant overrated fluff-wise. The Deathwing are feared and held in awe by their enemies while the Fists' first company just kinda gets overlooked, despite their sterling reputation for massed Terminator landings. I think maybe it was Space Hulk that did it?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel_Sanders
When all was finished, the battlefield was a smoking crater. UDC, Valoran, US Army, Tau, the Nazis, a random pirate ship, and a bunch of ninjas, all were enemies to the Vulture. All were turned into scrap metal. Or plastic. Depends which game system you play.
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Old 26 Jun 2006, 21:05   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Deathwing (all terminator army) can they be really good?

apparently you never read the fluff on how the deathwing started painting their armour bone colored. If I can find the link to it again I'll post it here later.

as far as Lysander wing being better, I got you on 6 things...

1. I don't have to take scouts or marines as troops. granted scouts are cool, I just don't want to have to take them in my army. with Lysander wing unless you have the points, they are a given.

2. I can have and afford Dreadnoughts. That might not sound like much, but you would be surprised how well mine usually do. If you are playing a Lysander wing army then most likely you are filling up all three of your elites with terminators and losing out on the dreadnoughts.

3. Lysander wing maxes out at 5 terminator squads, and 2 of those have to be command squads. My deathwing in a 1500 pt game usually has about 6 squads, only one of which is a command squad.

4. Stubborn, don't look down your nose at it, it has saved me many a time. and the Lysander wing can't have it. :P

5. Lysander wing can teleport all at once, but with deepstriking you take a lot of risks. add to that if you don't take drop pods, then there is a 33% chance that you won't be able to deep strike at all. thats why my marines almost always start on the board, and when they do come in from orbit its always in a drop pod (they're not perfect, but at least they are more reliable than just deepstriking)

6. Come on, who paints their marines yellow? Real men use Bone colors (that was meant as a joke, please do not take it literally, I'm just having a little fun)

And as always, deathwing is fun to play.

(Tom, what took you so long to reply? thought you would have been on this topic a lot sooner)

Edited: this should be the link to the story of how the deathwing started painting their armor white (bone colored)
http://pages.zoom.co.uk/bogey/Files/Deathwing.html
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Old 26 Jun 2006, 21:34   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Deathwing (all terminator army) can they be really good?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Howloutloud
apparently you never read the fluff on how the deathwing started painting their armour bone colored. If I can find the link to it again I'll post it here later.
It's ok, I know about the squad that saved their homeworld and all that stuff. I meant, in the eyes of the average gamer, they probably made their name in the Space Hulk board game (where they featured quite heavily).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Howloutloud
I can have and afford Dreadnoughts. That might not sound like much, but you would be surprised how well mine usually do. If you are playing a Lysander wing army then most likely you are filling up all three of your elites with terminators and losing out on the dreadnoughts.
If you want to expose a couple of slow, medium armour walkers to an entire army's worth of AT weapons as your only vehicles, you go right ahead...me, I'd rather split my enemy's AT fire between several heavily armoured or fast vehicles.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Howloutloud
Lysander wing maxes out at 5 terminator squads, and 2 of those have to be command squads. My deathwing in a 1500 pt game usually has about 6 squads, only one of which is a command squad.
Quality, not quantity, bud. I'd rather have four squads of eight than six squads of five.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Howloutloud
Stubborn, don't look down your nose at it, it has saved me many a time. and the Lysander wing can't have it.
Fair enough, can't argue with that. If you say it makes a difference, all I can do is take your word for it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Howloutloud
Lysander wing can teleport all at once, but with deepstriking you take a lot of risks. add to that if you don't take drop pods, then there is a 33% chance that you won't be able to deep strike at all. thats why my marines almost always start on the board, and when they do come in from orbit its always in a drop pod (they're not perfect, but at least they are more reliable than just deepstriking)
You're mistaken. Terminators can always deep strike via teleportation, it's not dependant upon the mission special rules. If you take a Damocles, you've got a teleport beacon which allows you to re-roll the scatter dice for teleporting troops. What's more, if you drop Termies within six inches of those scouts you would rather do without, they don't scatter at all!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Howloutloud
Come on, who paints their marines yellow? Real men use Bone colors.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel_Sanders
When all was finished, the battlefield was a smoking crater. UDC, Valoran, US Army, Tau, the Nazis, a random pirate ship, and a bunch of ninjas, all were enemies to the Vulture. All were turned into scrap metal. Or plastic. Depends which game system you play.
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Old 26 Jun 2006, 22:45   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Deathwing (all terminator army) can they be really good?

The dreadnoughts are more along the line of " either shoot me and my terminators will kill you or shoot my terminators and I'll get to have the fun". you'd be surprised how often the dreadnoughts are targeted with tons of heavy weapons and just waltze away like nothing happened ;D gotta love extra armor and the venerable upgrade (although I wish that I could take more than one venerable)

as for deep striking, read the rules again for terminator armor. "May only deep strike if the mission allows for deep striking". Its the drop pods that can deep strike no matter what, not terminators.

as for quality over quantity, in a terminator heavy army I want the quantity. I'm sorry but when you only have so many models to use in a 1500 or 2000 pt list you tend to make smaller units. sure there are less ablative wounds in the unit, but I have more units that you have to deal with. Actually either argument is kind of sound, I just prefer more units, and not just to field more heavy weapons. That is a bonus of course....

Stubborn only really makes a difference when being shot at. In close combat it does exactly the same as "and they shall know no fear", but in shooting there is no chance of falling back when reduced by that 25%. I'm not saying that its super powerful, but it has saved my units on more than one occasion.

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Old 27 Jun 2006, 00:13   #10 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Deathwing (all terminator army) can they be really good?

Deathwing and lysander are completely different. Deathwing is a fluffy all-terminator army that isn't really designed to be effective, while lysander places the emphasis on terminators while still allowing you to use things like assault marines and predators to round out the force.
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