Tau Empire Codex 2013 | Army Builder Program
Dark Angels Codex 2013
Chaos Daemons Codex 2013
Chaos Space Marines Codex 2012

Warhammer 40k Forum Tau Online

 

Warhammer 40K Forum

Rhinos - Am I using them wrong?
Closed Thread
Old 18 Jun 2006, 00:54   #1 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hertford, UK
Posts: 5,086
Default Rhinos - Am I using them wrong?

In my opinion, the Space Marine's ubiquitous rhino is one of the best, perhaps the best, transport vehicle in 40k. It's ludicrously cheap, capable of limited self repair, very fast (if you're a Blood Angels player), can transport ten power armoured marines and sports two fire points and a storm bolter (which while handy for picking off poorly armoured enemy infantry, doesn't burden it with the role of fire support). It's poorly armoured but for a pure transport vehicle, that shouldn't matter. So why are my Rhino's letting me down?

After playing against Eldar for a while I found I was constantly being outmanoeuvred and took steps to make my army more mobile. Among other things, I equipped all three tactical squads with a Rhino each. This has certainly had a positive impact on my games and my brother is still trying to adjust his tactics to counter a mechanised Space Marine force. However, my Rhinos never seem to survive long enough to get my Marines exactly where they're needed. No one ever steps out of one of my Rhinos of their own volition; they're normally forced to dismount a burning wreck and fight wherever their transport came to rest. The casualties they take in the process are no more than they would have if they'd advanced on foot, and they cover more ground in less time if they travel in the back of a Rhino.

My concern here is that I'm not getting the most out of my Rhinos. Drop pods are twenty points cheaper and are more likely to put my marines where I want them, unharmed. Sure they might scatter, but that's better than my tactical squads having to extricate themselves from the remains of a Rhino and fight their ground against the very unit that destroyed their transport. What's more, no one can really prepare for a drop pod assault because they have no idea where they'll land...whereas my Rhinos are big, yellow chunks of rolling armour and get everyone's attention.

So what do Rhinos do to justify their cost in relation to drop pods? What aspect of Rhino-bourne mechanised assault am I overlooking that drop pods can't do better?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel_Sanders
When all was finished, the battlefield was a smoking crater. UDC, Valoran, US Army, Tau, the Nazis, a random pirate ship, and a bunch of ninjas, all were enemies to the Vulture. All were turned into scrap metal. Or plastic. Depends which game system you play.
Tom Norman is offline  
Old 18 Jun 2006, 01:38   #2 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,915
Default Re: Rhinos - Am I using them wrong?

I think you're having trouble with your Rhinos simply because they're weak.

I suggest Smokes and Extra Armour, as well as hugging cover at every, EVERY possible oppurtunity.

A Land Raider is great, but against Eldar, Bright lances will mess with you.

Drop-pods are a good option, but the Rhino is certainly better in its humbleness.

If you use them right, Rhinos can deliver where you need troops. Drop-pods are used to throw the enemy into disarray.

It seems you're not being aggressive enough. Try a Land Raider in bigger games [and don't let your brother know until the last second], and the normal contingent of Rhinos. Your brother will be looking at the Raider... TRUST me. After facing two in one game, they are not fun. Luckily, I was able to bust one with a Vanquisher and the other with a suicide melta team [which was cut to jerkey by the assault Terminators within]. They're not indestructable, but I was sweating at teh beginning. I won, but barely, as I concentrated all efforts on teh LRs, and none on the rest of the army.

I suggest trying the LR in union with Rhinos, and letting your brother know he's got worse to fear.

Another approach is to evaluate just what is killing off your Rhinos. A few Devastator squads and a Whirlwind would really go nice in helping your Rhinos with a little death from above.

If you can knock out the Fire Dragons and the War Walkers early, your Rhinos can cruise up with smokes and armour with just Guardians in retreat around them, and cut down the survivors.

I suggest:

1 Whirlwind
RTM

Devastors x7
Vet Sergeant
Storm Bolter, CCW
Marines x6
Heavy Bolters x4
Bolters x2

Devastors x7
Vet Sergeant
Storm Bolter, CCW
Marines x6
Lascannons x4
Bolters x2

That should give him much to think about.

Remember, youre playing Fists, and you want shooty above rushy, so don't be afraid dropping a Tactical squad for a Devastor squad.

Good luck!
Stankov

__________________
"The common soldier must fear his officer more than his enemy." King Frederick the Great, Prussia

[img width=650 height=288]http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a99/GeneralStankov/finalcopy.jpg[/img]
Ge. Stankov is offline  
Old 18 Jun 2006, 03:19   #3 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Alachua, Florida
Posts: 8,647
Send a message via MSN to MalVeauX
Default Re: Rhinos - Am I using them wrong?

Tom,

You just encountered why Rhinos are a rarity in competitive game play. While you see the perfect transport others are seeing a 50 point non-scoring dedicated steel coffin that would have been better spent elseware. It's a vehicle that isn't fielded first turn if you're playing Escalation. It's low armor makes penetration more of a reality and it's not a skimmer, so it will be penetrated once you use up your smoke launchers. Penetrating hits hurt you bad. Entangled units = you lost an entire turn with them. Out of 6 turns, you can imagine, that's a big loss. So first turn, if you don't go first, there's a good chance you will lose the Rhino to a penetrating hit--and thus, lose your first turn with that unit who was in it (unless you were wise and didn't field them embarked). If you go first, sure you can move up and pop smokes, but next turn, it's going to be penetrated probably and lost. Well for that, you could have just infiltrated probably.

Anyhow, Drop Pods are superior in many ways, but Drop Pods aren't the answer either.

Basically, you're seeing why Marines in the competitive environment are not being mobilized. Marines are literally being used as cheap heavy weapon teams. If you need marines who move, you use Assault Marines, Bikes and Terminators. Otherwise, whatever your marines were trying to do, a Dreadnought or Land Speeder or Predator can probably do it better.

You haven't missed anything. And it's not your fault about the Rhinos. That's 4th edition for you.
Drop Pods can take you places, but they cost you a minimum of two turns to put you there and allow you to move. That leaves you 4 turns to get the job done. If the job is to just survive, then it's a good one. But if you need to do other things, it's going to limit you.

My suggestion is for you to explore other units to do whatever it is you're trying to do. In most cases, something else can do it better, unless it's cheap heavy weapon access.

Cheers!
__________________
[table][tr][td][/td][td][table][tr][td] [/td][td]Apocalypse is the only way to forty-kay.[/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table]
MalVeauX is offline  
Old 18 Jun 2006, 13:08   #4 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hertford, UK
Posts: 5,086
Default Re: Rhinos - Am I using them wrong?

Hmmm, ok. Thanks fellas, that's opened my eyes to some new tactics, but I do have a few more questions continuing on from your comments?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Generalissimo Stankov
I suggest Smokes and Extra Armour, as well as hugging cover at every, EVERY possible oppurtunity.
These are all things I do, but my brother has started playing Imperial Guard. This means there are now Autocannons everywhere. This has an impact on your proposed Land Raider tactic (see below).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Generalissimo Stankov
Try a Land Raider in bigger games [and don't let your brother know until the last second], and the normal contingent of Rhinos. Your brother will be looking at the Raider... TRUST me. After facing two in one game, they are not fun. Luckily, I was able to bust one with a Vanquisher and the other with a suicide melta team [which was cut to jerkey by the assault Terminators within]. They're not indestructable, but I was sweating at teh beginning. I won, but barely, as I concentrated all efforts on teh LRs, and none on the rest of the army.

I suggest trying the LR in union with Rhinos, and letting your brother know he's got worse to fear.
In my 1500-2000 point games I field a Prometheus loaded with chainfist-wielding Termies, led by a Chaplain. The heavy bolters mow down infantry on the way in and the Termies debus and tear up enemy armour. The problem of course is that all those Autocannons are useless against a Land Raider so they target the Rhinos instead. In this instance the Land Raider is tough enough to fulfil it's purpose but for the same reason it is ignored by most of the heavy weapons out there. Should I use a lesser vehicle like a Predator or a Vindicator to draw fire?

Mostly, I send the Rhinos in as one and the Land Raider on it's own. I see them as two independant task forces. Perhaps that's what I'm doing wrong? Should I use the Land Raider to spearhead my advance with the Rhinos and block incoming fire? If so, I would have to forgo twelve twin-linked heavy bolter shots for two turns to match speed with the transports.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Generalissimo Stankov
1 Whirlwind
RTM

Devastors x7
Vet Sergeant
Storm Bolter, CCW
Marines x6
Heavy Bolters x4
Bolters x2

Devastors x7
Vet Sergeant
Storm Bolter, CCW
Marines x6
Lascannons x4
Bolters x2
The Whirlwind is an idea. I'll have to paint up another Rhino chassis though because all those I have are currently being used as transports (the Whirlwind launchers lie unused in my tank case). Only one? Or should I make room for more?

I'm not keen on these Devastator squads though. They're so overpriced! The Lascannon team alone are 266 points...I could buy another Terminator squad for that! If I did take a devastator squad, I wouldn't waste points on the Sergeant like that. Thats 21 points each for an extra bolter shot per turn! The weapons themselves though...do you find they're worth the cost (bearing in mind these two squads constitute nearly one third of my points allocation in the average game)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MalVeauX
Basically, you're seeing why Marines in the competitive environment are not being mobilized. Marines are literally being used as cheap heavy weapon teams. If you need marines who move, you use Assault Marines, Bikes and Terminators. Otherwise, whatever your marines were trying to do, a Dreadnought or Land Speeder or Predator can probably do it better.
I want my troops choices to constitute a major portion of my army because I've heard that large Marine tactical squads are extremely effective and cost efficient (and also for fluff reasons - Ie. In reality, infantry are the backbone of any army and should always be in the majority...with the exception of desert warfare and the like). Is this not so? Are large tactical squads not as effective as people would have me believe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MalVeauX
Drop Pods can take you places, but they cost you a minimum of two turns to put you there and allow you to move. That leaves you 4 turns to get the job done. If the job is to just survive, then it's a good one. But if you need to do other things, it's going to limit you.
I use my Rhinos to take the battle to the enemy (so if he falls back, he's in big trouble). For this purpose, they take two turns to get there anyway so they have no advantage over drop pods in that respect. Is this tactic a mistake? Should I only use Rhinos to get my troops to objective markers?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel_Sanders
When all was finished, the battlefield was a smoking crater. UDC, Valoran, US Army, Tau, the Nazis, a random pirate ship, and a bunch of ninjas, all were enemies to the Vulture. All were turned into scrap metal. Or plastic. Depends which game system you play.
Tom Norman is offline  
Old 18 Jun 2006, 13:51   #5 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Southern California
Posts: 5,117
Send a message via MSN to arguleon-veq
Default Re: Rhinos - Am I using them wrong?

You've probably not actually overlooked this point, but as it isn't included in your posts;

LOS Blocking & Strongpoints;

The fact that your Rhinos will be blocking Line of Sight from the start of the game can be a big bonus, you can hide that Assault Marine Squad until they are needed. You can advance a Vindicator into range in relative safety etc.

Even when they are destroyed they provide a great piece of cover that you can fight from. A 10 man Tac Squad with twin Plasma [1 without Traits] and a Sarg with a Power Fist can make great rapid-fire drop attacks but if your Rhino gets destroyed they have a solid piece of cover to fight from [as by this point you should be at medium range, perfect for Bolters and Plasma Guns]. The enemy will probably have to resort to combat to shift this squad, and then you have a unit that should be striking first and you have a buried Fist. With that in mind I often see a fair few players that refuse to keep their Rhinos loaded up with Marines after turn 2, they advance the full 12" under smoke launcher cover and then if the Rhino survives they dismount and advance behind the Rhino until they are in range. So if the Rhino survives [and now it is much less of a target as it is empty] the Marines make good ground without suffering casualties. If it is destroyed it's just as good because you have small fortification in the middle of the board from which your Marines can fight from.

With a bit of none transport, mobile support these little wreck strongpoints can be game winners. As the enemies focus shifts to trying to destroy these points of determined resistance, your other mobile elements are then in a position to control the game. You are now doing what you want rather than reacting to the enemy. Assault Squads can aid these strongpoints in combat, Dakka Preds can get into decent firing positions and mow down enemy infantry that have broke cover in order to try and cleanse these units. The enemy can try and just blast you out, but you will also be in range but with the added benefit of almost all your units being in cover and having a great basic infantry weapon.

Movement Blocking;

Not as important but it still comes in handy. Blocking avenues of advance with Rhinos that you no longer have a use for. Denying areas of the battlefield to your enemy can be very important.
__________________
Brunettes and Beer.
arguleon-veq is offline  
Old 18 Jun 2006, 13:54   #6 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Alachua, Florida
Posts: 8,647
Send a message via MSN to MalVeauX
Default Re: Rhinos - Am I using them wrong?

Tom,

If your opponent cannot dent your Land Raider, then you should definitely notice that first turn, and have that Rhino running in that Raider's shadow. Let him waste time on A14 for a while if he has a bunch of autocannons, instead of gift wrapping a Rhino and setting it out there for him to bust right away.

Quote:
I want my troops choices to constitute a major portion of my army because I've heard that large Marine tactical squads are extremely effective and cost efficient (and also for fluff reasons - Ie. In reality, infantry are the backbone of any army and should always be in the majority...with the exception of desert warfare and the like). Is this not so? Are large tactical squads not as effective as people would have me believe?
Marines are effective. But there are lines, which can be crossed. When transporting marines and/or drop podding, you typically want it to be worth while and you want to move a lot of bodies. 10 Marines is generally too much because if someone stops that transport or something, that's 10 marines out the window. 6 Marines is too little. Why bother transporting 6? So the magical transport number generally tends to be 8. Same for Drop Pods. It gives you a large squad with a good score limit (3 is non scoring).

Infantry are the backbone, but it depends what you're doing with said infantry. If they're just whizzing around in a Rhino and getting entangled, well, that's not a backbone is it? Marines are exceptionally good at a few things: (1) resilience, (2) moral, (3) shooting cheap heavy weapons, (4) cheap transportation. When you take too many of them, you're denying something else, elseware.

10 Marines (including fist vet) in a rhino for assault? Well, that's 230 points minimum. 8 Assault Marines with a fist vet would run you 206 points. See the fundamental difference between true mobility and mobility which can be denied to you? Also to note: when you lose mobility to a squad that you purchased it for, you're giving the points to your opponent and completely stalling your tempo of that squad for a turn. Mobile marines looking for assault are simply better with jump packs, for obvious reasons. You may think they cost more, but they don't when you factor that they will not be stunned, their mobility will not be robbed and that they will move up to 12 inches every turn, not just one (and then stunned).

Very large shooting Marine squads are not efficient. 8~10 marines for a lascannon and plasma gun simply isn't worth it. Look how many bolters you're wasting. Look at the cost. Look how often they're shot and how often they're still a scoring unit. Compare it to a 6 man team, in cover. There's a reason why everyone plays with 6 man teams for `shooting.' You use 8~10 man teams for other things, like advancing and assault and podding. You expect to take more damage when you're up close. Las/plas 6x marine squads don't need that extra beef.

Quote:
I use my Rhinos to take the battle to the enemy (so if he falls back, he's in big trouble). For this purpose, they take two turns to get there anyway so they have no advantage over drop pods in that respect. Is this tactic a mistake? Should I only use Rhinos to get my troops to objective markers?
Rhinos don't really work well to take you to the enemy. All it does, is puts your exit points closer to him, and if you're still inside, he's going to bust that vehicle and entangle you. If he blocks your exit points--you lose the marines when that happens. Watch out for those fast moving rough riders... for example. When you disembark and are entangled, you're in a perfect little clump, right where a battle cannon pie plate is perfect for being placed. Rhinos aren't a good idea for that. Rhinos are good at the following: (1) preventing line of sight on turn one to something else, (2) functioning as a mobile piece of 4+ cover, with nothing inside, (3) blocking assault paths and movement paths, (4) quickly dropping off an infantry squad 12 inches somewhere, and then not attempting to move them again. A rhino shouldn't make it past turn one or two, and typically doesn't. If you want to go to your opponent, you'd be better off Podding if you want to get close to shoot and assault. That way you safely arrive, have a wall between you and the enemy and then you can move out and do your thing unscathed. Do it with a Dreadnought in a Pod if you want some serious shock value when that thing comes rolling around the corner.

Anyhow, if you want to keep using that Rhino (and not just convert it into a vindicator heh heh), then I highly suggest you "Taxi" it behind your Land Raider. Use it to move Marines places. But don't use it to attempt to put marines in assault. You cannot move, disembark and assault anyways, so trying that is only begging to be punched in the mouth real good before you get to start your show.

Devastators

Devs can be incredibly useful. They're quite good. Something to note right away is that their prices are higher, for obvious reasons. But don't let that fool you. You pay more points but it's because you're getting heavy weapons without buying additional marines. 2 lascannons in troops is a minimum of 10 marines (two squads of 5) and the two lascannons of course. Look at a 6 man team of Devs with 2 lascannons. It's 4 less marines, and only 20 points cheaper for the same damage output. The lascannons are much more expensive, the absolute maximum more expensive than troops--but sometimes, it's better to have 2 lascannons in a single squad instead of having 4 immobile squads not moving. So go with your needs. If you aren't desperate to shoot several targets with lascannons, then a 2 man team can free up space for more walking bolter teams.

One of the better ways to use Devs are simply for heavy bolter access. It's the cheapest gun to take, and it's also the best gun to mass. Heavy bolters always are good. Against everyone. You can't go wrong with them. A 6 man Dev team with 3x Heavy Bolters is a great unit for a good price.

See how I equipped? Never the minimum, never the maximum? Just a comfy middle ground? That's how you can use them without breaking the bank and still getting more power out of them than a Troop selection has.

Cheers!

__________________
[table][tr][td][/td][td][table][tr][td] [/td][td]Apocalypse is the only way to forty-kay.[/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table]
MalVeauX is offline  
Old 18 Jun 2006, 14:09   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 937
Default Re: Rhinos - Am I using them wrong?

Speaking of LOS, Tom, you're a smart guy but I don't think you realize that the Land Raider is about the biggest chunk of plastic in the game! You can play your army as a convoy with the LR at the head of the group to take most of the incoming fire. Then, even if a Rhino does get hit its squad is already half-way to its destination with cover and your opponent used his autocannons against a transport instead of the real goodies (tac squads).
If you worried about the Rhino price tag, consider it this way:
In order to get a tac squad where you need it you at least pay for infiltrating (if you have the trait option) which starts you off at a hefty 30pts for a 10-man unit. Plus you get a Storm Bolter at BS4 (unlike the crappy Drop Pod BS 2 Storm Bolter). PLUS, if your squad has special weapons you can fire from firing points (the only practical way to use the flamer template) and I believe you can fire from the hatches and use smoke launcher on the same turn granting you an additional round of support fire that Drop Pods just don't give you.
Yes, Rhinos are way underrated but people forget that they are basically mobile cover that you can fire from that also defends itself (guardsmen hate storm bolters). You might even get to tank shock those cowardly guardsmen with empty Rhinos after they've dropped off their tac squads and make them flee with their pitiful leadership!
Frogger is offline  
Old 18 Jun 2006, 14:14   #8 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hertford, UK
Posts: 5,086
Default Re: Rhinos - Am I using them wrong?

Alright, thanks for the advice all! I think I might be using wrecks incorrectly; I need to start benefitting from the 4+ cover save they provide. It just seems dumb to get a 4+ save on top of a vehicle though. I'd have thought you'd be even easier to hit up there!

[quote=Frogger]
Speaking of LOS, Tom, you're a smart guy but I don't think you realize that the Land Raider is about the biggest chunk of plastic in the game! You can play your army as a convoy with the LR at the head of the group to take most of the incoming fire.quote]

I'll try this tactic next game but I just don't like the idea of losing all that firepower in order to keep pace with the Rhinos.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel_Sanders
When all was finished, the battlefield was a smoking crater. UDC, Valoran, US Army, Tau, the Nazis, a random pirate ship, and a bunch of ninjas, all were enemies to the Vulture. All were turned into scrap metal. Or plastic. Depends which game system you play.
Tom Norman is offline  
Old 18 Jun 2006, 14:19   #9 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Southern California
Posts: 5,117
Send a message via MSN to arguleon-veq
Default Re: Rhinos - Am I using them wrong?

It's not really a vehicle anymore though. When its wrecked it hasn't just had a track blown off. The fuel tank has been hit [or something like that], it's got big gaping holes in it. Your pretty much looking at a big metal shell with firing ports.....that can't blow up anymore.
__________________
Brunettes and Beer.
arguleon-veq is offline  
Old 18 Jun 2006, 15:08   #10 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hertford, UK
Posts: 5,086
Default Re: Rhinos - Am I using them wrong?

But on top of it? I dunno...It just looks odd. Makes sense though if you're charged...you're obviously going to have the advantage up there.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel_Sanders
When all was finished, the battlefield was a smoking crater. UDC, Valoran, US Army, Tau, the Nazis, a random pirate ship, and a bunch of ninjas, all were enemies to the Vulture. All were turned into scrap metal. Or plastic. Depends which game system you play.
Tom Norman is offline  
Closed Thread

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
custom rhinos? tjen2085 Space Marines 10 18 Jul 2009 09:36
Are Rhinos really that bad? justinl Space Marines 32 17 Mar 2008 08:04
rhinos wolfmother Space Marines 6 10 Jan 2008 00:31
In the wrong place at the wrong time Tom Norman Space Marines 8 17 Sep 2006 21:38
rhinos and wolves Aon Space Marines 6 07 Apr 2006 14:48