[Tom Norman]

Here's one for the rules lawyers amoung you: We all know that units with Assault Cannons and the 'Tank Hunters' special skill can be a real thorn in the side for lightly armoured vehicles (and even heavily armoured vehicles with a lucky roll or two). But the rules for Tank Hunters read:

"They add +1 to their armour penetration rolls whenever they hit a vehicle..."

So assuming they roll a 6 on their armour penetration roll (or a 5 if taken literally) and they then roll another dice for armour penetration ('rending' special rule), do they add +1 to both dice rolls?

I'm sure that's not what was meant in the spirit of the rules, but word for word that's how it translates. So I'm curious, how do people play this rule? Does anybody actually add +1 to both rolls?

[MalVeauX]

Heya,

Unfortunately that's not how it works. No little loop holes :P

Tank Hunters

"... They add +1 to their Armour Penetration rolls..."

Rending

"... an Armour Penetration roll of 6 allows a further D6 to be rolled... "

--- The only way to trigger Rending is to roll a 6 (ie: physically roll a 6). You don't roll a 6 by rolling a 5 and adding +1 to it. You rolled a 5, and added +1 for tank hunters. You fail to get Rending if you did not roll a 6 as the initial dice roll. Both abilities trigger at the same time--if it's not a 6, there's no rending.

--- Literal translation (word for word) would be: "A roll of 6 allows..." Did you roll a 6? No. You rolled a 5, and you added +1 to it. That doesn't make 6. That makes 5+1. That's literal.

--- The two abilities stack, but you do not apply the +1 twice. Rending allows another D6 to be rolled to the original dice roll (ie: penetration roll) while Tank Hunters adds +1 to the global penetration roll you're making. When both trigger together (only when you rolled a physical 6 for penetration), you merely get D6+1 penetration. You don't add bonus penetration to bonus penetration as if it were two separate penetration rolls--it's the same roll, modified. Again, literal translation: Is the rending D6 roll "a hit against a vehicle?" No. It's a modifier to the original roll. So it wouldn't trigger a 2nd +1 from tank hunters.

Cheers!

[Tom Norman]

Fair enough then, that makes sense. But still, literally speaking (and I just want to argue now for arguments sake), rolling a five should result in a rending hit against vehicles. If you roll a five and the Tank Hunters rule says add +1 to your armour penetration roll your armour penetration roll itself is modified to 6. If it said 'add plus one to your armour penetration total' then it'd be a different matter. But by the same logic a physical roll of 6 would be modified to 7 and so wouldn't count as a rending hit, so there's no advantage to be gained either way unless you're a dirty stinking cheat and spring this one when you roll a bunch of fives at a critical moment.

Sorry Mal, I'm with you on the extra AP bonus thing but I disagree on the fives or sixes point.

[theRaptor]

Tom a "roll of five + 1" is not the same as a "roll of a six". If you roll five and add one, you still only roll five, but the result is six. No ifs or buts.

[Tom Norman]

'No ifs or buts'? The Raptor has spoken and it must be so. :

I happen to agree with you because I know what is meant by the rules but logically I'm right! Tank hunters adds one to your armour penetration roll. If you modify the roll itself it becomes something different. I was wrong on my main point when I started this thread; Mal put me right there. But until someone comes up with a logical argument based upon the wording itself (and not what we all know it's supposed to mean) I refuse to accept that I'm wrong. :P

[theRaptor]

Just read the instructions on page 4 of the BGB under dice rolls, it pretty clearly sets out what a "dice roll" is, and how you normally go about modifying the total. You can't logically add +1 to a roll. You can add it to the total but you can't add it to the roll (as that wouldn't be a "roll").

[Elessar]

units with both rending and tank hunters are rather rare though aren't they? its just dreadnaughts.

[Tom Norman]

From the Big Book, page 5; Dice Rolls:

"Sometimes, you may have to modify the result of the dice roll."

What with maths being absolute, if you modify a number (ie. change/adjust/alter) in any way, it is no longer the same number.


If you look at the rules for Armour Penetration on page 65, it says:

"Roll a D6 and add the weapon's Strength characteristic to it, comparing this total against the vehicle's Armour Value."

So we've established that a normal Armour Penetration total comprises two parts: The Weapon Strength and an Armour Penetration roll. And as already stated, the tank hunters rules say:

"They add +1 to their Armour Penetration rolls"

This clearly indicates that it is not the weapon strength, or the Armour Penetration total, but the Armour Penetration roll that is modified.

Originally Posted by Elessar

units with both rending and tank hunters are rather rare though aren't they? its just dreadnaughts.

And Termies. Never under estimate the brown-trousers potential of what is effectively four rending autocannons suddenly appearing behind your tanks and opening up on that vulnerable rear armour facing.

[charn]

I seriously think this is extreme rules lawyering.

Ok, so with rending, you add +1 to your armour penetration roll, plus your original strength.

So if adding the +1 is counted on the roll (i.e. you roll 5, +1 = 6 = rending), why isn't adding the strength also counted? In that case you would never be able to get a rending 'roll', as even if you roll a 1, +6 = 7 =/= rending.

I think it goes against the spirit of the game to suggest otherwise. You roll a 6, therefore it is rending. Therefore you roll another dice, add the second result, plus strength, plus 1 for tank hunters. If you roll a 5, you simply add strength plus 1.

[Tom Norman]

You're missing the point here, bud. We're not arguing because we each play these rules differently (indeed we both play it as per the spirit of the rules, as it was meant to be played), we're just arguing it on an entirely logical basis for the interlectual challenge it presents...and because we both want to be right.

Besides, you've missed most of the argument too. You get a rending hit against armour when you score an Armour Penetration roll of 6, not when your Armour Penetration total equals 6. Strength doesn't even enter into it. My argument here is that the tank hunters special skill adds one to your Armour Penetration roll.