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The capabilities of Terminators
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Old 09 Jun 2006, 14:03   #11 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: The capabilities of Terminators

To counter the Genestealers, just hide in cover, if they attack you, you strike at the same time (unless you have powerfists or thunderhammers which always strike at intiative 1). For Assault Terminators, use the pairs of lightning claws.
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Old 09 Jun 2006, 14:27   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: The capabilities of Terminators

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norsehound
Hello.

Not new to 40K, but have an army of Tau and a group of Eldar... was looking into starting a small SM force entirely of terminators.

Question is, is this possible? I also wanted to know if Terminators (close combat) ones are what I beleive them to be- walking tanks with incredible saves and cause pain when they arrive.

Don't care about model quantity (the smaller, the better), was just wondering if Terminators could fill the 'niche' for a playstile I want to exhibit.

Thanks in advance marines.
Heya

They are! However, they're not tanks. They're tactical dreadnoughts. So think of them like that.

I'll try to give it to you a bit bluntly, as to help clear up the starry eyes when overlooking the seeming power of Terminators (and to perhaps give you critical points that may lead to you saving hundreds of dollars--though remember, this is all just my opinion.)

Terminators are strong; they are powerful; they can do quite a bit for you. There's no denying it. They are not, however, ultimate. They will bring the pain, when they arrive, but that's if they arrive. Shooting terminators don't have that problem--which is why everyone uses them (and hardly anyone uses assault terminators par contre).

Space Marine terminators are better at shooting than they are in combat and it's only because they have Assault Cannons. However, don't forget that Terminators can also have Cyclone launchers, which can fire Krak Missiles on the move--this is overlooked, all the time, due to the rending abilities of the Assault Cannon. While the assault cannon is an awesome weapon, the Cyclone is still very good. When you're looking to cause damage without the luck of the roll of 6 that you need with assault cannons, the Cyclone can put a Krak Missile into things. That's high enough strength to drop monstrous creatures and an AP value good enough to break everything with 3+ saves or worse. No luck involved. So keep that in mind; also keep in mind that they have double the range of the Assault Cannon. Now, that's not to say it's better than the Assault Cannon, but it's to give you an idea that you have choice.

Assault Terminators are terrible at what they do. Sure, they have all those fancy super weapons, great saves, they're just awesome all around on paper. But in the game, they move 6 inches and have zero shooting attacks. Well, we all move 6 inches. So all we do is walk away and guess what--the Terminators never do anything in terms of damage. And that's 300+ points down the drain. Instead, they just roll armor saves and give us victory points as we put a few plasma rounds into their faces. Assault terminators need delivery; and that requires a Crusader typically. Again, relying on a super expensive vehicle to deliver the Terminators is risky--but it's the best way to deliver them to combat. The raider can also be turned into their tomb though. Simply immobilizing it or destroying it, and entangling or locking down the Terminators who bail out and sit for a turn twiddling their thumbs. Or worse, have the exits blocked and are destroyed when they cannot get out. Make no mistake--without good delivery, Assault Terminators are not the kings of combat. Many, many things out there can wreck Assault Terminators any day of the week and/or at least perform just as well against them for far less points.

Examples:

Banshees
Blood Letters
Daemonettes
Incubi
GeneStealers
Raveners
Warriors
Rough Riders
Any Ork with a Choppa
Berserkers with Chainaxes

But really, Assault Terminators are much easier to kill with the shooting phase. All it takes is a splash of Plasma and they go poof. So your 300 point unit gets hosed by a little 80 point team of Storm Troopers with two plasma guns and you cry cheese as the weaklings run away since you cannot shoot them since you have no guns, and they drop plasma in your face the whole time as you remove your models.

--- Pure Terminator Armies can be incredibly tough. BUT they are not based on assault. They are based on shooting. So if you want to go Terminator heavy, go shooting. They can do decent in assault, but, there are other things which are better at it, such as Assault Marines. Mobility is what wins assault--not super attacks. Because if you can't catch 'em, you can't assault them.

--- I would suggest going with the normal Space Marines and if you want to go Terminator heavy, do so. Even though Deathwing is chapter approved, it's still limited. You can create your own custom force in the Space Marines which will be better.

So for example, a list template to give you an idea:

HQ1 - Cap'n Termi; Command Squad of Termis; Assault Cannons
HQ2 - Cap'n Termi; Command Squad of Termis; Assault Cannons
Elite1 - Termis; Assault Cannons
Elite2 - Termis; Cyclone Missile Launchers
Elite3 - Termis; Cyclone Missile Launchers
Troop1 - Space Marines x 8; Drop Pod (Great scoring unit that you can reserve and protect)
Troop2 - Space Marines x 8; Drop Pod (Great scoring unit that you can reserve and protect)
(Alternatively, you can use normal space marines there and take lascannons for support)
Fast Attack - Optional assault marines for counter assault and interception.
Heavy - Optional support from Dreadnoughts with a trait; which fits the theme nicely.

I'd go for the Trait system, allowing dreadnoughts and terminators. Then everyone on the board, except the 2 troop selections of your choice (I'd go for cheap podding marines... great way to guard points) would be in a suit of Dreadnought armor of some kind, from full on sarcophagus to tactical. Otherwise, you can try to find the Deathwing chapter approved army (in a white dwarf) and field 100% terminators if you prefer. Though I'd go for the space marine with traits system still; pure terminators isn't as fun as mass terminators with a tiny bit of "other" support.

Cheers!
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Old 09 Jun 2006, 15:34   #13 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: The capabilities of Terminators

yea exactly as melveux put it they need perfect delivery or they are 300 points of nothing but if they manage to get into combat unphased they are a lethel combat unit yes there is many risks attached but if the dice are in your favour they will crush the enemy
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Old 09 Jun 2006, 18:36   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: The capabilities of Terminators

Holy dogpoo that was a lot of reading. What's already been said is that Termie armies are difficult to use, really punishing if you get a few bad rolls but deadly if you don't. Sounds like a lot depends on luck with such an army, but if that's what you want to do (and who hasn't at some point) then I don't want to dissuade you.

A great idea for a Termie army is not Deathwing, but Imperial Fists. If you use Lysander to lead them, you can teleport them all at once (make one reserves roll for all Terminators, re-rolling if necessary)! For your troop choices, take a couple scout squads with teleport homers. Give most of them assault cannons and the 'Tank Hunters' special ability, teleport them in behind enemy armour and let the mayhem begin! For added cheesiness you could take a damocles so you can re-roll one reserves roll per turn (the only reserves roll) and re-roll for scatter when teleporting. Just picture it...turn two, your opponent is persecuting your two scout squads and moving on your Damocles...then POW! Terminators everywhere...enemy armour in disarray. He'll wet himself.


By the way, if you're going to do the (one-trick-pony) Assault Termie/Landraider thing then give them a chaplain and lightning claws all round...the ability to re-roll both to-hit rolls and to-wound (ignoring armour I might add) makes them utterly lethal on the first (and probably only) round of combat. You could subsequently use them to herd enemy units in a desirable direction but I think after they've butchered whatever you deploy them against, they're pretty much spent. Alternatively, you could use conventional shooty Termies with chainfists and a chaplain...woe betide any enemy vehicle that ends it's movement within 20" (and line of advance) of your Land Raider.
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Old 09 Jun 2006, 22:54   #15 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: The capabilities of Terminators

Actually, if you really want to play a heavy terminator army I would look into the chaos lists. Two squads can be used as retinues to your chaos lords plus one elite squad. You get a lot of choices depending on the mark you choose and your troops can be daemons ( very nice after a successful deepstike ). Were I to start a heavy terminator list today I would go khorne or tzeentch ( rhubric terminators are scary and you can use them as elites - three squads).

I play deathwing. I have over 3000 points of them. I never use assault teminators and I rarely deepstrike anything but my dreadnoughts. I avoid land raiders ( just too expensive as I'm already light on troops).
Mal has summarized nicely the merits of cmls vs. assault cannons. If ypou play DW long enough you start to see the strengths and weaknesses of the army. I just got bored with them and picked up Khorne to have some good ol' cc fun. I hate LysanderWing. Yes, it is a strong list. But they look like BANANAS and their fluff sucks. Ya don't wanna be banana boy do you.?
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Old 09 Jun 2006, 23:46   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: The capabilities of Terminators

My stratagy for Termis is to use them to go after the weaker enemies, because a Storm Bolter has a range of 24' while a cannonfodder gun like a Shuriken Catapult only has a range of 12'.

Therefore, by keeping my termis about 23' away from the guardians (or other cannonfodder, marines don't count), I can shoot them, but they can't shoot back!

PWND.
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Old 10 Jun 2006, 00:39   #17 (permalink)
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Default Re: The capabilities of Terminators

Quote:
Originally Posted by bebe
...they look like BANANAS and their fluff sucks...
Imperial Fists look great! What could be more impressive than the sudden arrival of a Terminator legion clad in blazing yellow and red armour? And the fluff? The Fists are a Space Marine chapter with their own space-bourne fortress-monastery! It's called the Phalanx and from it they have forged a fearsome reputation for orbital assaults via Thundehawk, drop pod and most prominently; teleport assault! It's what Lysander's all about, so how can you say their fluff sucks? It couldn't be more perfect! The man wants Terminator assault and the Imperial Fists deliver.
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Old 10 Jun 2006, 01:47   #18 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: The capabilities of Terminators

Don't do Space Wolves if you want an all-termi army. They cost a bundle point-wise. XX for the model, another XX for wargear, ect.
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Old 10 Jun 2006, 02:48   #19 (permalink)
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Default Re: The capabilities of Terminators

Lysanderwing.

The benefits are tremendous. Huge. Amazing.

Not only is it the BEST way to play termies, you get a new motto:

"Damn the camo, PAINT IT YELLLOW!"

I love the idea of some scouts encountering the main menemy force, and then calling in for reenforcement. Brother-Captain Lysander responds!

Paint the scouts all camo and hidden... have the Fists absurdly yellow. The contrast will be great.
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Old 10 Jun 2006, 04:24   #20 (permalink)
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Default Re: The capabilities of Terminators

Quote:
Actually, no. Remember that Terminators do not get +1 attack for having two single-handed weapons, because they do not have two single-handed weapons. Storm Bolter counts as two-handed, even on Terminators (unless I'm missing somewhere where it says otherwise). A charging Terminator (unless with 2x lightning claws) will only get 3 attacks.
Actually, the whole stormbolter thing got over looked in the latest edition of the game. (there is a similar problem with the techmarine I might add.)

See, stormbolters are two handed, but all termies can use them in one hand. There is nothing in any of the rules I've read that explains why they can wield a two handed weapon in one hand, and yet they get them standard issue. (fluff wise it makes perfect sense, but as I'm sure we're all aware, fluff and gameplay don't always meet up.)

The only way the termie could even use both the powerfist and the stormbolter is if the stormbolter counts as a one handed weapon for them, or if there is some complex rule (as of yet unseen) that justifies allowing termies to use two handed weapons one handed, but they still continue to be two handed.

Basically I went with the logic of, if it only takes one hand to use, it's one handed, as the second possibility is more complex and therefore less likely.

Occam's Razor leans more towards termies having two weapons is basically my argument for them having the extra attack for having two weapons.
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