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Defeating Godzilla Tactica;
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Old 22 May 2006, 15:49   #1 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Defeating Godzilla Tactica;

There was a thread in the Nid board the other week about taking on Godzilla lists with Marines, there were some good posts and points raised so I thought I'd collect it into a Tactica.

[size=16pt]Defeating Godzilla[/size]

The Tyranid Godzilla list is, I believe, one of the most powerful lists in the game. A competitive Godzilla list will not be based around close combat, shooting will be a very key element for them. This leaves you facing a list that is massively durable with upwards of 30, Toughness 6 wounds, each with a 3+ save. It can pump out 24+, Strength 6 shots a turn with an effective range of 24Ē. Backed up by up to 24 Strength 5 shots, 3 large blast templates and 6 Strength 10 shots!. That amount of fire-power even causes huge problems for power armour.

People typically fear the close combat abilities of Tyranid Monstrous Creatures, but they arenít all that impressive, as a result although this Tactica is based around combating the competitive shooty Godzilla list it still works just as well against combat Godzilla lists. Better in fact, as combat Godzilla lists donít cause as much damage. The reason Godzilla lists need to have a fire-power focus is speed, most of the units in the army move and charge only 6Ē, something which can often be avoided. Weapons like Devourers give an effective range of 24Ē rather than 12Ē.

__________________________________________________ _________________________

We will focus on the Carnifex as it is the key element to this type of army, here is a post by Mal detailing the best course of action against any Carnifex built for close combat;

Carnifex are great at dealing damage, and taking damage. But there's a few things they're not great at:

1 - They're slow. If you can prevent them from moving, they will never reach objectives and you win.
2 - They're slow in close combat; and typically very poor at it (low number of attacks, poor weaponskill, etc).

A 1,500 point list can easily fit 8 Dinos in there. 6 of them is far more manageable.

Las/Plas - Basically, several squads of that will easily munch through a dino per turn basically. However, it's keeping them shooting that is important. You can also take Dev teams with 4x Missiles if you are 100% sure he doesn't use extended carapace (ie: 2+ save upgrades). However, I'd stick to las/plas and ensure you ignore his saves, no matter what.

Close Combat: - You can rush him, and halt his movement by making him sit in close combat for easily 2 turns or more. A single carnifex will be hard pressed to kill more than 2 marines per turn. It will easily take him a long, long time, to actually kill 8 marines, even 6 can hold out a while. If there's a power fist in there, he's going to really lose out as he will easily take a wound himself, each turn. If you hit him with a Lascannon first, or two, and then Powerfist him in combat, he's down--easily. All the dinos can be locked into little combats and they end up sitting. Dinos that don't advance, cannot get table quarters, get loot counters, or get into your deployment zones (recon), etc. So you can win sometimes just buy blocking him from moving. And as mentioned above, Dreadnoughts are excellent at killing Carnifex who are down 2 wounds already. So long as you hit first, you can down him--typically you hit first; as Carnifex built for combat are really crumby, so most people field shooting carnifex of several types.

Things to Watch For: - Watch out for the "support" in his army. Aside from Dinos, which you can kill or avoid, you will need to be wary for him to field Lictors, Raveners, Rippers, etc. Little things that seem harmless, which can mess up your game plan if you ignore them (or win him the game simply by some of them remaining scoring units at the end; aka Raveners). Luckily, bolters put them to death with ease. But don't neglect them.

--- So, load up on Lascannons, plasma guns and anything that is not a standard vehicle. I would also highly suggest bikes with Meltaguns, or attack bikes with Multi-Meltas. They can move fast enough to intercept ugly Dinos, and the Meltas are great for instant wound removal.

--- Don't underestimate the power of assault marines with 2x Plasma Pistols & a Power Fist. They can effectively down a giant on their own!

The Godzilla list will typically look like this;

HQ1 - Hive Tyrant; Wings (good kit, but not every upgrade; just essentials)
HQ2 - Hive Tyrant
Elite1 - Devilfex
Elite2 - Devilfex
Elite3 - Devilfex
Troop1 - Spinegaunts x 8
Troop2 - Spinegaunts x 8
Troop3 - Spinegaunts x 8
Fast1 - Ravener x 1
Fast2 - Ravener x 1
Fast3 - Ravener x 1
Heavy1 - Sniperfex
Heavy2 - Sniperfex
Heavy3 - Sniperfex

The little Gaunts can draw synapse and hide behind the big monsters to counter assaults, or simply try to preserve themselves. The Raveners are there for scoring. You could trade in the spinies for rippers, etc, whatever works for you. But that's 8 dinos in 1500 points.
__________________________________________________ _________________________

Now, small Las/Plas squads arenít quite as effective against the regular Elite Carnifex with 2 twin-lined Devourers;

Those 3 Elite Fex will down a 6 Marine Las/Plas squad a turn or easily destroy anything lightly armoured such as Transports or Speeders. A Tyrant with 2 twin linked Devourers will down 3 Marines a turn too. All 4 of those models will have an effective range of 24" so if your Plasma can shoot them, they will be shooting back. That combined the Heavy Support Fex pounding you too [providing they no longer have tanks to shoot at] will mean most of your infantry squads will be heavily reduced in number. This will give the Monstrous Creatures a chance to finish them off easily in combat.

The fact that they bring your Marines down through weight of fire also means they can make you take a save on that special/heavy weapon or Sarg most of the time, which can really ruin your day and reduce squad efficiency. It also means that cover will do you no good at all in most cases. Where as cover will be a huge bonus for the Tyranids. With a decent amount of terrain on the table you will also have Raveners tying up your Devi squads. Which you will have kept at the back of your force trying to keep them out of combat, they won't go for the foremost squads as the Godzilla Tyranids will WANT to be shooting you too, not blocking LOS with combats [not mid game anyway, they may do early on when most of their weapons are out of range].

Break down - Las/Plas squad vs Elite Fex;

Let's say, you get an extra turns shooting with your Lascannon before the fex can fire.

0.5 Wounds caused.

Fex moves into range.

1.6 Dead Marines.

Marines shoot.

0.5 Wounds [Lascannon]
0.4 Wounds [Plasmagun]
0.1 Wounds [Bolters]

1 Wound caused.

Fex advances again and shoots.

1.6 Dead Marines

Marines shoot.

0.5
0.4
[Minimal damage from the last Bolter, not worth putting in]

1 Wound caused.

Fex advances again and shoots.

1.6 Dead Marines

Marines [Plasma Rapid fire, last Marine].

0.9

1 Wound caused.

[Total, approx - 3.3 wounds on Fex]

The Fex can shoot down the last Marine with ease and if that didnít work it can still charge in to finish the job. Both that Fex and the Marine squad cost 115 points. There are obviously a lot of variables but it is a good indicator, plus the Fex is mobile which will help in most missions.

Now, in combat if you get the charge with a squad that has a Sarg with a Powerfist the Fex will only cause half the damage it does at range and you will cause over double the damage to it than the Las/Plas squad does at range. Mal's suggestion of Assault squads with Plasma Pistols and a Powerfist really is the way to go, not only will they easily beat down the Fex with very few losses, their speed will help them avoid too much shooting from the Fex [1 turn at most from an Elite Fex] and they will come in much more handy in mission based games.

A six man Assault Marine squad with 2 Plasma Pistols and a Sarg with a Fist will cause about 4 wounds with combined shooting and charging. So the Fex [and this is a close combat Elite Fex] will kill 2 Assault Marines before it dies;

Assault Marines get into charge range and fire pistols.

1.3 [Plasma]
0.15 [Bolt Pistols]

Assault Marines charge.

0.55 [Normal Attacks]

Fex attacks back.

1.7 Dead Marines.

Sarg strikes.

2.2 Wounds caused.

[Total - 4.2 Wounds. 1 Dead Fex]

As for a list for defeating Godzilla, if you like infantry I would go for a list like this;

HQ1 - Captain; Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield.
Elite1 - Basic Dread.
Troop1 - Las/Plas [6]
Troop2 - Las/Plas [6]
Troop3 - Las/Plas [6]
Troop4 - Scouts; 4x Sniper, Missile [6]
Fast1 - Assault Marines; 2x Plasma, Fist [6]
Fast2 - Assault Marines; 2x Plasma, Fist [6]
Fast3 - Assault Marines; 2x Plasma, Fist [6]
Heavy1 - Devi. Squad; 2x Las [6]
Heavy2 - Devi. Squad; 2x Las [6]

- Summary -

7 Lascannon,
6 Plasma Pistols,
4 Sniper Rifles,
3 [4] Power Fists,
3 Plasma Guns,
1 Missile Launcher,
1 Assault Cannon.

55 Marines,
1 Walker.

The Captain will try to survive against a Carnifex's few attacks with his shield and pound it with his Hammer, then he can strike back at the same time with his Hammer if it goes into a second round of combat. Not much point in the extra would and Ld on the Master as he will be instant killed by Fex anyway.

You have a decent fire-base. They will cause an average of 4 wounds on Big Nids a turn at 24", so that's one down a turn. You will also get shot up pretty badly in return though, remember that. Keep the Scouts at 36" so they can't get as easily shot up. The extra range is why the Scouts are in the list. The Devi squads will provide an extra 2 wounds on Big Nids a turn. Try to keep the Scouts in cover as they are vulnerable to the best Tyranid weapons in terms of AP, the Scouts will do good job of dealing with things like Raveners too.

The Dread can cause some decent damage at range and punch out most wounded Fex, plus he's cheap.

The Assault squads are the game winners; Mobile, fast, pack a punch. They will bring down most Fex single handed at full strength and can seriously hurt Tyrants. Try to keep them safe and away from getting shot up, they are fast so it can be done.

Personally Iím not keen on tanks in competitive lists, you will be facing 6 Strength 10 shots a turn [although they will only glance] and 3 Strength 8 [which can penetrate]. This will give the Tyranids a hard time to actually destroy your tanks but they will have plenty enough fire-power to stop you shooting with them and as the rest of the Tyranid list is great against light vehicles and infantry [which your list will have less of if you take tanks] I think it will make for a more difficult game.

Las/Plas squads are better here than Las Predators, Vindicators arenít much use as they can only cause a single wound a turn on most enemy models. The Whirlwind will do virtually nothing and Heavy Bolter/Autocannon Predators do not have high enough AP to be a threat. Tanks just arenít great against Godzilla lists.

__________________________________________________ _________________________

Now if your willing to take Traits, here are a few changes suggested by Mal;

"Blessed be the Warriors."

Move two Assault Squads to Elite (costing 18 points more than normal)

Drop the Devastators.

Use the points to field two fast attack selections of Attack Bikes with Multi-Meltas.

--- You gain more mobility so that you aren't just taken in assault by a Ravener or something and instead, can move to keep good line of sight on Fex and/or inevitable hive tyrant who may be hiding behind two Fex for example.

I would drop the scouts. A barbed strangler and venom cannon will have range on them. They're only relatively safe from the Devilfex, which probably won't really be shooting at scouts anyways when a single template can do it's job just as easily. I'd instead, take another troop of las/plas or another Dreadnought (one dread can hide behind the other for the walk if necessary).
__________________________________________________ _________________________
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Old 22 May 2006, 16:34   #2 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Defeating Godzilla Tactica;

It all sounds like good solid advice.

The only thing I'd say is if you have the points give the Veteran seargents in the assault squads thunder hammers instead of fists. For only 5 more points you can save a lot of marines if you're fighting against a Hive Tyrant for a protracted period of time.
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Old 22 May 2006, 16:52   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Defeating Godzilla Tactica;

I'd agree if they were only 5 points more, plus Thunderhammers are just really cool. But they are 15 points more.
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Old 22 May 2006, 16:55   #4 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Defeating Godzilla Tactica;

On a veteran seragent? Woops my bad :-[

Haven't looked at my codex in a while I assuemed they followed the same pricing scheme as power weapons/fists.
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Old 22 May 2006, 21:58   #5 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Defeating Godzilla Tactica;

Heya,

Looks like a good compilation of solid means to combat a Godzilla list. I'm sure there's a few more ways to spice things up, but I think the root of the idea is covered here.

Just for reference, anyone interested in the original thread that spawned this: Finding Godzilla's Flaw.

--Starting to look like this board needs an Important Topics sticky eh?

Great compilation

Cheers!
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Old 23 May 2006, 17:02   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Defeating Godzilla Tactica;

I figured I'd be one of the people interested in this thread...
Anyway, I'd like to contribute to the brainstorming of the thread by throwing out a few ideas:

Drop Pods; why not? Stuff them full of 10 marines with a hidden powerfist and dual plasma guns and you can rapid fire a fex into submission before pounding it into the ground. Plus, you get the cover save of the Drop pod and a few extra bolter shots to whittle down the hurt on that monster and possibly provoke an attack from a troops or minion choice therefore wasting an enemy phase. Another huge benefit is the fact that thanks to the drop pods you'll already be next to all your targets and will probably provoke them to charge where you can REALLY smack the hurt down.
Using entirely drop pod forces will leave your enemy with no targets at the beginning of the match meaning his lictors will be waiting in the bushes for nothing, his deepstriking tyrant will be forced to fight on your terms against squads designed to kill IT instead of the other way around, and all those raveners will not be able to use their speed to their advantage as you'll be fighting on their side of the battlefield. Remember that when using drop pods, you'll likely only be facing one turn of shooting against gun fexÓ and then you spend the rest of the game in cc traveling from bug to bug and making them flee from being outnumbered 10 to 1 in cc. You don't even have to finish them off, just make them run and you trample them with your superior initiative.
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Old 25 May 2006, 15:45   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Defeating Godzilla Tactica;

Well Dual Plasma again requires Traits.

Drop Pods are decent and can work but your losing 2 Marines for every pod you take, still, here is a few numbers;

Pod drops in with a full 10 man Marine squad with dual Plasma and Sarg with Fist [235 Points];

1.77 Wounds [Plasma],
0.5 Wounds [Bolters].

Fex moves at the Marines and shoots back;

1.9 Dead Marines [2].

Fex charges;

1.25 Dead Marines.

Marines strike back;

Fex dies for the loss of 3 Marines.

Which is a good return, but you also have to keep in mind that your force will arive piecemeal and you will have less of a force to use. That squad will probably be teamed up on by a few MC's shooting.

A Drop army will look a little like this;

HQ1 - Captain; Thunder Hammer, Combat Shield, Plasman Pistol.
Elite1 - Basic Dread, POD
Elite2 - Basic Dread, POD
Elite3 - Basic Dread, POD
Troop1 - 2x Plasma, Fist, POD [10]
Troop2 - 2x Plasma, Fist, POD [10]
Troop3 - 2x Plasma, Fist, POD [10]
Troop4 - 2x Plasma, Fist, POD [10] - Joined by Commander

Lets just look at how a game could run down with an army like this;

Turn 1 - Nids move towards objectives, get into some cover.

Turn 2 - Nids again move around, they know that your dropping and so pair off the MC's [say 2-3 MC's in cover]. Marines drop down, 2 Troop choices [1 and 4] and a Dread 1 arrive;

[Action 1]Troop 1 drop next to a tag team of a Heavy and Elite Fex, supported by Dread 1. 3 wounds caused in total on the Fex.

[Action 2]Troop 4 drop next to an isolated Elite Fex and cause 3 wounds.

Turn 3 - In Action 1 the Elite Fex shoots Marines, 2 Dead. Heavy Fex shoots Dread, stunning it and either blowing off a weapon or immobilising it. Elite Fex charges Marines, kills 1 and is downed by the Fist [as it was down to 1 wound]. If the Dread is not immobilised the Heavy Fex will charge the Dread which causes 1 wound and is destroyed in return. Lets say the Fex and Marines consolidate into each other. So the Marines lost a 105 point Dread and 3 Marines, totalling 150 points. The Nids lost an Elite Fex at 115 points and a wound off the Heavy Fex.

In Action 2 the Fex shoots the Marines, kills 2. It charges and kills another and is then killed in return.

Dread 2 & 3 arrive along with Troop 3. Dread 2 arrives next to Action 1 but takes a wound off a Tyrant within 24". Dread 3 and Troop 3 drop into another Action 1 style scenario [Action 3] - They cause 3 wounds on the Fex. In Action 1 the Fex kills 2 Marines and loses 2 wounds dropping it to 1 wound and leaving the Marine squad on 5 Marines.

Now as you can see, the Marines get the upper hand with dropping in as they get the initiative early in the game.

Turn 4 - The last unengaged Heavy Fex damages Dread 2. The Dakka Tyrant moves into support in Action 3 with shooting and Combat Tyrant assaults Dread 3. Combined shooting of the Fex involved with Action 3 and the Dakka Tyrant result in 6 Dead Marines. Tyrant Destroys Dread 3. The 2 Fex charge the 4 Marines, killing 3 and losing the Elite Fex. This leaves Action 3 with 1 Heavy Fex in combat with 1 Sarg with Fist and 2 Tyrant close by.

2 Spine Gaunts squads shoot Troop 4. 2 Dead Marines. 2 Ravenors charge them. 3 Marines Dead. That leaves Troop 4 with the Sarg and Commander who kill the Ravenors.

Action 1 results in the death of the Fex and another Marine dead leaving Troop 1 with 4 Marines.

Troop 2 finally arrive and they take on the last unengaged Elite Fex causing 2 wounds [Action 4].

Forces remaining after turn 4 -

Marines;
Troop 1 [4]
Troop 2 [10]
Troop 3 [1]
Troop 4 [2]
Dread 2 [Damaged]

Tranids;
Elite Fex [2 wounds lost]
Heavy Fex [Not hurt]
Heavy Fex [Not hurt]
Tyrant [1 wound lost]
Dakka Tyrant [Not hurt]
Spine Gaunts [8]
Spine Gaunts [8]
Spine Gaunts [8]
Revenor.


As you can see, as the game goes on the Nids start to gain the upper hand with the extra numbers and the Marines early initiative wearing off.

Turn 5 - Winged Tyrant heads towards Dread 2. Heavy Fex and Dakka Tyrant shoot Troop 1, destroying them. Revenor charges Troop 4, killing the Sarg and getting killed by the Captain. Last Elite Fex shoots and charges Troop 2, killing 3 and getting killed. Troop 3 finished off in combat by Heavy Fex.

All the Marines have left is a 7 man squad, Captain and a damaged Dread. The 7 Marines of Troop 2 shoot down a Spine Gaunt squad. The Captain moves towards another Spine squad and the Dread wounds the Flying Tyrant.

Turn 6 - Troop 2 brought to under half strength by Dakka Tyrant shooting. Heavy Fex each destroy a Drop Pod. Spine squad shoots Captain, take 1 wound. Flying Tyrant destroys Dread 2 in combat.

Captain kills a few Gaunts, Troop 2 shoot a few Gaunts down from last squad.

Survivers -

Marines;
Wounded Captain,
Troop 2 under half strength,
5 Pods.

Nids;
Heavy Fex,
Heavy Fex,
Dakka Tyrant,
2 Spine squads over half strength,
Winged Tyrant [lost 2 wounds],
Dakka Tyrant.


Tyranids win by 250 VP's - Solid Victory.

All in all, that was just a very long winded way of saying and showing that I don't think Drop Pod armies are the best way of beating Godzilla Nids. They just don't have the numbers or support needed [a lot do with mobility late in the game] to do it, as the scenario above shows; the game starts to get away from them late on. This is a lot to do with the mobile Nid fire-power and the fact that the Nids just have a lot more units. Plus, I didn't even take into account the added durability of the MC's that moved into cover.

Still, a drop squad or 2 would be a handy addition to a Godzilla slaying Marine list, just don't go for a whole drop force against them.
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