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Are Space Marines too powerful fluff-wise?
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Old 16 Dec 2005, 23:52   #1 (permalink)
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Default Are Space Marines too powerful fluff-wise?

Space Marines are the best of the best (of the best of the best, etc...) fighters that the Imperium of Man can muster. They are given the best weaponry, the best armour, artificial organs and pushed to the absolute maximum that the human body can be made.

But here is where we begin to encounter problems. In spite of their ability to ignore pain, marvelous healing abilities, masterful skills, etc, they are not physically capable of taking as much damage as some would have us believe. Consider that in Fire Warrior, Kais must shoot a Space Marine six times with an Imperial plasma pistol to kill him. Consider that a Space Marine is merely flesh and strengthened bone with a few redundant parts and some specialized organs thrown in the mix. Finally, consider that, in spite of their bullet proof 'Bone Shield' rib cage, there are no Space Marines who have had their actual flesh modified for resilience. :

Where, then, does this ridiculous resilience come from?

Supposedly, a single marine is capable of killing three Crisis battlesuits piloted by veteran Fire Caste warriors and escape unharmed. What's wrong with this picture? : Numbers, armour, and sheer mass. Firstly, a Battlesuit is at least twice the size of a Marine, if not more, and most of the protruding parts are not limited in the amount of armour they carry by having to protect fragile human flesh within them. Thus, a suit should, reasonably, be tougher than a Marine. Since it is difficult to kill a Marine, even with a boltgun, it is very unlikely (this is an understatement) that such a thing would be possible to begin with. : Second, Tau may not have the greatest reflexes, but they aren't exactly comatose, either. And to compound this, these Tau would be carrying weaponry that can easily make a mess of any human, Bone-Shielded or not. :

What do you think?

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Old 16 Dec 2005, 23:59   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Are Space Marines too powerful fluff-wise?

Actually, space marines have had their flesh modified, by the implantation of the black carpace. Also, they are wearing incredibly thick armor and have the ability to heal very rapidly. However, I think your right, space marines are way too resiliant fluffwise.
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Old 17 Dec 2005, 06:18   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Are Space Marines too powerful fluff-wise?

General George:

Such is the plight of all fantasy heroes alike. Space Marines are the poster child for the game. They must be the best. They are represented as the best to reflect it too. Think about it like this: Batman & Robin are a great duo, but why does Batman get all the glory? Why doesn't Robin get the girl? In all those kinds of stories, which 40k actually falls into itself, the good guy who is the main protagonist is going to really look good. Tyranid fluff is actually worse than Space Marine fluff, in that it's unstoppable really and much too powerful to even comprehend, however because they're not the "good guy" they're not portrayed so prodominantly in all aspects of the game, like the boys in blue are.

Space Marines are 40k's "hero" character basically.

In the end, I'd advise you not to lose too much sleep over it. They have been and always will be portrayed in this way (that is unless another army surpasses space marine sales ).

Cheers!
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Old 17 Dec 2005, 07:59   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Are Space Marines too powerful fluff-wise?

Marine fluff is (more or less) spot on. They can take on entire armies without so much as a scratch, yet get hammered the moment a Griffin Mortar lights up.

Marines cannot be stopped by basic infantry. You need heavy weapons, and preferably tanks, to scratch them. Even then, they aren't easy to kill...
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Old 17 Dec 2005, 13:25   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Are Space Marines too powerful fluff-wise?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wargamer
Marine fluff is (more or less) spot on. They can take on entire armies without so much as a scratch, yet get hammered the moment a Griffin Mortar lights up.

Marines cannot be stopped by basic infantry. You need heavy weapons, and preferably tanks, to scratch them. Even then, they aren't easy to kill...
That is where we have a problem... the most experienced ones don't wear helmets, for one. For another, looking at the front of the 3rd Ed. Space Marine codex does not convince me that they are invincible to infantry. Those Marines were shot. Whether it was with plasma guns, meltaguns, or fething lasguns, they were shot. Not blasted into little bits and pieces by some lucky mortar fire. Which means something must have shot them, probably infantry. They can be defeated by infantry. Anybody can. It's just a matter of how many infantry it takes. A reasonable ratio to assume, I think, would be 1 Space Marine dies to kill 15-25 Guardsmen, say. There's only so many people you can kill before one of them actually gets a brain in his head and shoots back... :

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Originally Posted by MalVeauX
General George:

Such is the plight of all fantasy heroes alike. Space Marines are the poster child for the game. They must be the best. They are represented as the best to reflect it too. Think about it like this: Batman & Robin are a great duo, but why does Batman get all the glory? Why doesn't Robin get the girl? In all those kinds of stories, which 40k actually falls into itself, the good guy who is the main protagonist is going to really look good. Tyranid fluff is actually worse than Space Marine fluff, in that it's unstoppable really and much too powerful to even comprehend, however because they're not the "good guy" they're not portrayed so prodominantly in all aspects of the game, like the boys in blue are.

Space Marines are 40k's "hero" character basically.

In the end, I'd advise you not to lose too much sleep over it. They have been and always will be portrayed in this way (that is unless another army surpasses space marine sales ).

Cheers!
I must stipulate: the good GUY! It is reasonable if there's a 1 or 2 heroes, but a freaking army of them? Hell no.

And I'm not asking why they should be portrayed this way, but rather if they should be, simply because it tires me to hear Wargamer make his 'fluffy' marines with S and T 6, and then say a freaking CRISIS BATTLESUIT should only be T 5!
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Old 17 Dec 2005, 13:32   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Are Space Marines too powerful fluff-wise?

Marines are fine as they are.

Marines ARE the best. That is how it has always been, it was that way when you got into the game, it will always be that way.

Power Armour is no doubt more advanced than an XV8 suit, Marines are about as durable as a Suit. But that isn't the strength of Marines. Marines are so great because they pick battles that they will win, they fight on their own terms. They strike before the enemy can retaliate or bring enough power to face them. It is made clear in the fluff that Marines fall apart in large scale engagements most of the time, where their advacnced armour and abilities dont count for much [If a Titan is shooting at a Marine, they aren't in the role they are meant to be in, and they will invariably be dead in a very short amount of time]. Marines plan assaults etc down to seconds, it is their tactical ability that makes them so powerful as due to this ability they engage in situations where their great equipment and physical prowess really counts.

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Old 17 Dec 2005, 14:05   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Are Space Marines too powerful fluff-wise?

I realy really really do hate to admit since I collect space wolves with inducted daemonhunters, you're right. NOOOOOO! (That no could go on for a long time but I could get bad karma)
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Old 17 Dec 2005, 15:05   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Are Space Marines too powerful fluff-wise?

Marines, in fluff, are the best. But in a game of 40k, it depends. They can be the best, or the worst. Its all on how you use them, and how good your opponent is. The game 40k, is really cool, because, it allows each army to have a really cool storyline or plot, and even if it says that they're the strongest army, or the mightiest force, they're still the same in a game. They're all equal. They might be an incredibly strong force that can crush anyone in galactic scale, but 40k battles aren't fought in "Galactic scale". They're fought in equal point matches, so that no matter how strong an army is fluff wise, they are all equal, and its up to the players to find out who wins.

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Old 17 Dec 2005, 16:38   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Are Space Marines too powerful fluff-wise?

The reason models don't have helmets is because characters look better without. In reality, they would wear them.

And I think a Griffon, which causes an explosion big enough to level a bunker, is going to do a tad more damage than a plasmagun, which could hardly scratch the door.
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Old 17 Dec 2005, 17:13   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Are Space Marines too powerful fluff-wise?

Ooh...have to disagree, there. Shells from a griffon destroy bunkers by blowing them apart from the inside out. It's a pressure thing. A griffon shell exploding against the outside of the wall of a bunker instead of inside the bunker wouldn't do much at all. A guardsman cowering on the ground 50 feet away might survive. The only way a griffon shell is going to kill a marine is with a direct hit against him or a bit of incredibly bad luck like a piece of shrapnel penetrating his visor.

Plasma, on the other hand, works on heat...Much like the shrapnel from a white phosphorous grenade, it brings the heat source along for the ride (the difference between a quick blast of heat and being coated in a burning substance is enormous!). The heat generated by the plasma defeats the armor, while the momentum of firing it carries it through the target. It's like the effect of acid burning through something, only it's moving hundreds of feet per second.

So, the pressure wave of a griffon detonation in the open, where it has plenty of room to disapate, isn't going to do anything to power armor, except perhaps toss the marine 50 feet across the battlefield. The only way a griffon is going to get to a marine is a lucky bit of metal flying through the air...just like getting shot by an autogun could take down an unlucky marine. Plasma, on the other hand, is specifically designed to eat the sort of armor that laughs at projectiles (like bolters) and projected energy (like lasguns).
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