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troop tactics
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Old 16 Dec 2005, 19:46   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default troop tactics

i am new to space marines after finishing a 1000pt. tau army. I would really like help on some good tactics for an almost entirely troop army, i am buying the megaforce and making an army out of that. I made my own chapter with TYBB and see but dont be seen and as a drawback i have flesh over steel (blood ravens basically but i made new fluff and a new army name etc.)

I will be facing alot of tau and I would like some good anti-tyranid tactics as well!
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Old 18 Dec 2005, 18:45   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: troop tactics

Well, do you want an Assaulty army? A shooty one? Static? Mobile as heck? Give me some details of what type of army you want and I'll help.

As for anti-tyranid and Tau tactics...I can help.

Tau

I actually do have some experienve here, as every battle I've fought included them! Some things to keep in mind:

1)The Tau's main gun (as you should shurely know) is better than marines. It has improved strength and range. But don't be afraid of it-usually 1 out of ten shots actually kills a marine. Don't be careless, but do not fear the Ta Firewarriors. Tie them up in combat with a fast moving Assault Squad, and they'll be destroyed while tying up there guns.

2)Crisis Suits and Hammerheads will be your main worries. Crisis Suits can easily outmanouver your basic troops. But again, Assault Squads are a key unit. Being able to move 12" and assault 6", they will be able to catch those pesky Crisis Suits. The Crisis Suits, as I've found, usually hit-and-run your forces, and target your light armored vheicles, such as rhinos. Besides attacking them with Assault Squads, you can flank them. If you attack from two sides, they'll have no place to go safe, and on of the units will get him.

3)Continuing above. Hammerheads will be the main (and often only) anti-tank weapon at their disposal. The gun may seem frightiening at first, but you are now with the Emporers finest, so you do not fear! Use infantry to attack the thing. The hammerhead mostly will only concetrate on tanks, and will often ingore your infantry. A 10-man Devastator easily will be able to take this out. With 1 shot (or a weaker blast shot that won'tt kill many troops), it won't be able to take down 10 soldiers (especially with power armor). 4 Missile Launcher will be able to take down one hammerhead.

4)If the enemy includes an Ethereal, make it a side-priority to take it out. again, using Assault Squads, you'll be able to take him out quick. Then you'll have Tau taking morale checks everywhere, with Tau fleeing.

5)You'll have a field day with kroot. They'll fall incredibly fast to bolter fire, especially if there is alot. Even in combat, they'll have either weak or no armor save, and they'll fall easily to your attacks. And you strike first. The Kroot are basically fodder for your troops.

6)Broadsides are another easy take-out for you. Your Devastators can easily take out the broadside. Broadsides are not mobile, and a single missile wound could kill one. The only thing is they have railguns. Which are no good at attacking 10-man infantry squads.

7)Tau are the most mobile armor, except for maybe Eldar. However, you can outmanouver them somewhat. Use tactical squads in Rhinos to intercept and take down Devilfishes. Give the Squad a meltagun (or two-cleanse and purify is a fav. trait of mine). Then chase down the Skimmer. It may go faster than you, but then again the squad is inside doing nothing and the 'fish isn't doing its job in getting the squad to an objective.

So...what units do you take again?

I suggest two assault squads-these will be one of the most valuable squads when facing Tau. Something that is just as mobile as them and that is good in combat is a big threat to them. Even if they die, the Tau player probably spent alot of fireing on them, leaving the rest of the army to fight. Take Devastators with Missile Launchers for Hammerheads and Broadsides. For Troops, take 3 tactical Squads (maxed) with a Meltagun (or two-again, Cleanse and Purify rocks) and a Rhino (with smoke launchers and extra armor so Crisis Suits don't harm you as much). Take a Master just for Ld boosts. If going for higher points costs, a Landraider would be good. This machine can survive Railgun hits, and carries a pair of TL Lascannons. A good Hammerhead killer.

Let me get my Tyranid tops together...
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Old 18 Dec 2005, 19:09   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: troop tactics

SMR, you have skewed versions of Tau.

1) I have done the math, and typically ten Space Marines charging twelve Fire Warriors will die. they will get into assault but by then there will be slightly less then two left.

2) agreed, although good luck catching the crisis without taking tremendous casualtys.

3) one word, broadsides. they are tougher cheaper and are in as many Tau armies as Hammerheads are, also you are forgeting the ion cannon, three AP3 shots, enjoy . also you misunderstand the basics of Hammerheads, 72 in. range anyone with half a brain will give them wargear enough to lessen your range by six and allow them to move 12" and shot.

4) correct, however anyone taking an Etherial will hide it behind a ridiculous amount of guns, if the opportunity presents itself, blast him otherwise, don't bother.

5) Kroot aren't for kombat fool! they hide in forests and can see 12" out, they shoot at you and you can either ignore them and get shoot or divert troops from the front, if you choose to shoot them, then you must make difficult terrain checks until you're within 6" if you try to assault them, they are in cover so they strike first (they normally have in. 4 so actually you'd strike simultaneously) they are annoying divertions, nothing more.

6) 2+ armour, 2 wounds and generally set up in cover behind Kroot or Fire Warriors so you have to make a leadership check just to shoot them, also they have SMS or plasma rifles in addition to railguns

7) why isn't the DF going to the objective? it will skim along either ignoring you while his mates in Broadsides pop the tank or swing around your back side and unload, pulse rifles can easily pierce a rhino's rear armor. ever heard of Fish of Fury?

Good luck with your Tau mashing anti11es.
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Old 18 Dec 2005, 19:35   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: troop tactics

Well, they worked against the 5 Tau Players I've faced :

And 10 Marines Charging 12 Fire Warriors=Marines dead? Your on something. 20 S4 attacks that hit first?

Ok...so here is the math.

Marines vs Firewarriors in combat.

Marines Charging

20 Hits-13.333333333... hit~13
13 Hit-8.666666...~6-7
6-7 wounds, 2-3 saved, resulting in 4 dead.

8 Firewarriors left to fight

8 hits-4 hit
4 hits-1.3333333...~1 wound
1 wound-.6666666...~1 save.
0 Dead.
Fire Warriors would lose against charging Tactical Squads. They could then retreat and suffer another charge, sweeping advance, or consolation for another charge, or stay in combat and die.

10 Assault Marines charging 12 Firewarriors

10 Assault Marines hit first.
30 hit-20 hits
20 hits-13.33333...~13 wounds
13 wounds-6.666666...~6-7 saved
6-7 unsaved, resulting in 6-7 dead.

In best case scenario 7 firewarriors left...
7 hits-3.5~4 hits
4 hits-1.3333333...~1 wound
1 wound-.666666....~ 1 saved
0 dead marines.

Obviuosly marines die in both scenarios : You have great math...

2)Only if you aren't good with marines. But when you have 18" to assault with, you'll prbably get to them when you have 10 marines.

3)Sorry, I did forget Ion Cannons. But simple solution-bring 2 devastator squads!

4)I know. But once you've laid waste to other threatening elements of the Tau army, you can easilyTake it out. And if they are stupid enough to allow you to, then definitly kill it.

5)Please tell me where I stated Kroot are for combat? I was noting that any kroot will die easily. And I'm no fool-perhaps you are? Your genious math : already showed that. I was noting there combat abilities (none) should he assault them. And the forest thing only helps in forest maps. Otherwise, they are useless. They are useless anyways. i was also pointing out he shouldn't nessecarily waste his resources fighting them (unless you'd like some easy victory points). And combat is spelled with a "c", "you fool".

6)Ok...Ld 8 say anything? And for 15 points more...Ld9? And maybe have say two lascannons instead of 4 missile launchers?

7)Swing around my backside? Only a marine player like you would allow this. And then I'd charge them. See above.

And this is Marines facing Tau, not Tau tactics. And I love you obvious alternatives to my strategy : Please think before you type.




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Old 19 Dec 2005, 00:18   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: troop tactics

ok, just on the tau vs marine debate...kroot are initiative 3...so marines will strike first unless the kroot are in cover, get your facts right, auno

and SMR: auno is talking about shooting marine down first, before they get into combat...however, he seems to have an elevated opinion about the shooting ability of the average fire warrior. 10 fire warrior shots will score 5 hits, approximately 3 wounds, killing one marine...vs assault marines, you're gonna kill maybe 3 before they acheive combat...so as far as i'm concerned, bum-rushing stationary fire warriors is just fine as a tactic, as they'll have trouble killing anywhere near enough marines to make a difference

anyways, back on topic people...
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Old 19 Dec 2005, 14:55   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: troop tactics

1)* Good point...but the actual number is 1/9, not 1/10.* As for the assault squad, this is the most feared unit in the space marines arsenal, from the tau point of view.* Definitely take at least one...preferably take two.* Believe me, everything will shoot at them to try and kill them before they reach tau lines.* If you only take one squad, the tau will be able to kill it in 2 turns, tops.* Maybe one turn.* Bottom line?* It's the best thing you can take against tau...but don't expect 5 assault marines to win the game for you. 2 squads of 8 with supporting fire should do the job.

2)* Assault marines are not guaranteed to catch crisis suits.* Both move 12"/turn.* At best, you can chase them around the board until they expose themselves to heavy weapons fire...but expect them to pummel your assault marines the entire time with plasma rifles!

3)* To quote Tarkin, "I think you overestimate their chances."* The only tank that's harder to bring down is the falcon.* Period.* First you have to glance it.* Then, the next turn, you have to pentrate it.* Potentially times three.*

As for Auno's statement that broadsides are tougher...gimme a break...that one makes me laugh so hard I'm wetting my pants.* The chances of a single BS4 lascannon wounding a single broadside are 55%.* The chances of a single BS4 lascannon destroying a single hammerhead are 3.7%.* Even if the broadside is in 2+ cover, it is easier to kill (at 9.25%) than a hammerhead.

4) Nobody takes an aun without two plans for getting him out of trouble. Also, keep in mind that skimmers won't run... Winning by killing the aun happens less often than phasing out necrons.

5) Couldn't agree with you more. Just don't let 20 kroot charge 5 marines...that would get ugly!

6) Would you pay 75 points for a terminator with twinlinked lascannons and tank hunters if you had to give up the ability to move and shoot (okay, "slow and purposeful" will soon come as an upgrade...but not for free!), your invulnerable save, and your ability to deepstrike? Oh, and your BS is reduced to 3? That's what a broadside is. A static termie with no invulnerable save for 75 points. It's a gift of VP to the enemy. Nuff said!

7) This is horribly flawed. The rhino won't make it past the second turn against tau (pulse rifles glance front armor, penetrate sides), and if the tau player is smart, the marines will have a long way to walk to get back to the fight, having been forcibly dismounted far from the center of things, while the firewarriors laugh from inside the fish as they jet off to an objective. Matching non-skimming transports that are vulnerable to every weapon in the tau army against skimming transports is a losing proposition.

Bottom line? Stick to missile launchers, lascannons, and assault marines, perhaps with a few heavy bolters thrown in (high rate of fire, wounds on 2+, penetrates carapace!), and you'll do fine against tau. If you insist on chasing devilfish, though, try landspeeders...specifically, the ones with assault cannons and heavy bolters. Won't do as much against a hammerhead, but they'll make a light snack of a devilfish...right before they themselves get shot down by massed pulse fire.
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Old 20 Dec 2005, 22:19   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: troop tactics

2)Assault Marines can move 12" and charge and additional 6".
3)I seee you point-need new pants?
6)Doesn't make sense to me-clear up please.
7)Good points again...back to missile launchers* *;D

Well...the Kroot won't last well in combat...especially at I3.* No save/6+ save isn't too good...oh, and T3...

And thanks for actually giving alternatives :
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Old 20 Dec 2005, 23:52   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: troop tactics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti11es
i am new to space marines after finishing a 1000pt. tau army. I would really like help on some good tactics for an almost entirely troop army, i am buying the megaforce and making an army out of that. I made my own chapter with TYBB and see but dont be seen and as a drawback i have flesh over steel (blood ravens basically but i made new fluff and a new army name etc.)

I will be facing alot of tau and I would like some good anti-tyranid tactics as well!
For 1000pts, you can't go far wrong starting off with a captain/ reclusiarch with cheap command squad (a command squad is just a tactical squad with more upgrade options), 2 tactical squads, a devastator squad, and an assault squad.

Make each squad 8 man; give the devastators 4 missile launchers; give the tac squads plas and either ML or HB; give the assault squad two flamers and a vet with powerfist; give the captain a powerweapon and bolt pistol; give the command squad bp&ccw, infiltrate, a vet with pf and 2 meltaguns.

Now, with your traits, these guys get more expensive, but I think that's a pretty balanced core marine army.
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Old 21 Dec 2005, 23:45   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: troop tactics

1) If a marine player chooses to walk up to a fw squad and loose 8 men the don't deserive to play marines

I use death watch so I can out shoot tau yes that is true. In rapide fire i kill 2.5 marines with my 5 man squad with a good chance of pinning.
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Old 22 Dec 2005, 01:00   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: troop tactics

Quote:
Originally Posted by march10k
7) This is horribly flawed. The rhino won't make it past the second turn against tau (pulse rifles glance front armor, penetrate sides), and if the tau player is smart, the marines will have a long way to walk to get back to the fight, having been forcibly dismounted far from the center of things, while the firewarriors laugh from inside the fish as they jet off to an objective.* Matching non-skimming transports that are vulnerable to every weapon in the tau army against skimming transports is a losing proposition.*
bollocks to that piece of useless advice. rhinos can quite easily make it past the second turn. hell, most games i've played against tau they have (except that one game where i only had one...). target overload is a wonderful thing. and given that even the 2 slow choices in my army are damn lethal, you have to be really careful about what you shoot. additionally, pulse rifles can only penetrate the back armour of a rhino...rhinos do NOT have side armour 10, which seems to be a mistake you keep making

oh, and if you get dismounted, odds are it really won't be far from the centre of things. rhinos really only need to give a turn, max of 2, worth of movement to be worth it. and leave them right where they need to be. you seem to assume that rhinos need to last the entire game to be worth it...honestly, they only need to give you one turn worth of movement to pay back their cost

and vaderhader: honestly, that's a pretty irrelevant fact. especially given that a marine squad has a tendency to be able to outshoot tau anyway (tau need 4's to hit, 3's to wound, marines vice versa. the real difference kicks in when you factor in armour saves, heavy and special weapons and the likelihood of running like a little girl...)
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