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The Sons of Embers and Ashes - BA 1500
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Old 16 Apr 2010, 20:33   #1 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default The Sons of Embers and Ashes - BA 1500

Hey all

What with the new codex, and more particularly the new kits, I'm running full speed after the BA bandwagon (Vehicle type Fast). So, without further ado, my 1500 tournament list.

HQ
Counts-as Seth - 160pts

Sanguinor - 275pts

Elites
Sanguinary Priest - 50pts

Sanguinary Guard - 200pts

Troops
Scout Squad: Camo Cloaks, Locator Beacon - 115pts

Death Company (x5 members): 2x Power Weapons - 130pts
+Land Raider Crusader: Multi-Melta - 260pts

Attack Squad (x10 members): 2x Meltas - 210pts

Fast Attack
Attack Bike: Multi-Melta - 50pts

Attack Bike: Multi-Melta - 50pts

Rough plan of battle is for the scouts to hide in some forward terrain and going to ground in the first turn. When the Death Company arrive in the deep-striking Land Raider with Priest attached, the DC change places with the Scouts, giving me a scoring Raider with an FNP and FC bubble. The DC then charge off to cause havoc at the forces that had most likely been moving to assault the scouts. The Sanguinor heads the charge, with the Guard acting as support. Seth remains attached to the Death Company throughout, providing them with more of a punch. The Attack Bikes are fairly simple, generally turbo-boosting and causing havoc.

I'm fairly sure that I need to start dropping shiny parts of the list, and I think top of the list are Sanguinor, Seth (although I already have it modelled) and the Death Company).

Thoughts VERY much appreciated.

Apollo S.

P.S. Also, fluff to follow, hopefully in the next day or two.
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Old 16 Apr 2010, 20:49   #2 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: The Sons of Embers and Ashes - BA 1500

Right, so first off I can see a problem with this list, and that is of course taking both Seth (hehe...) and the Sanguinor in a 1500pt list. The Sanguinot is a huge beat stick, and tends to only be effective in games of around 2k+ where he can sheild himself in the rest of the army but also nnot be overkill towards most things as he is a big hitter. I could understand taking him on his own but with Seth as well it seems like just a few too many points being spent on the HQ section, espicially sticks like them...

Whoops...

To troops! The Scout squad seems like a pretty solid choice, but I don't get why you are DS'ing your LR as it is going to come off the scouts. If the scouts are too close to the enemy then they are going to be destroyed, if they are too far away there would be no point in DS'ing the LR as it could drive that far in 1-2 turns. Also, how come you only have 5 Death Company in one LRC, seems like a waste of points as the squad in the LRC is half the cost of the LRC itself... Assault squad: solid choice as always, the best build in the BA book and they will definately pay for themselves quickly.

And the Attacks bikes. They are on their own and count as a marine for the purposes for instant death, and only have twice the number of wounds as a marine, so chances are they will be shredded pretty early on by any long range weaponry the enemy will have.

Sorry if this seems like a bit of a rant post, it just seems like this army is trying to do too many things at once, and is therefore becoming dislocated because of it.

EDIT: Also, if you think about it, the fastest you can get into combat with the LRC is turn three if you DS it because you can't DS and charge out of it in the same turn. In that time your opponent has 2+ turns to shoot at your Scouts and your LRC could have move 24" at least.
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Old 16 Apr 2010, 22:38   #3 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: The Sons of Embers and Ashes - BA 1500

Thanks Spectre, I was seriously considering dropping some stuff from that list - I think I had a bad case of the Shiny-Shinys.

Anyway, I've done my best to adapt my list, but as I was changing it, it hanged quite radically

So here we go, second revision that hopefully has a fairly good balance between AV and AI. I chose Redeemers as the Raiders will be moving to get in close as soon as possible anyway, with either the Assault Cannon or Multi-Melta doing it's work on the way in. I've kept the Sanguinor, but that T4 is making me waver a little, although I'm unsure quite what to replace him with; and that Sergeant's Blessing could come quite in handy with the new list.

The Command Squad are generally there to deal with heavy infantry/vehicles with Descent of Angels almost definitely bringing them into Melta range when they deep strike. Failing any vehicles hanging around in the back field, they'll be used to reinforce whichever squad needs it the most.

And yet, I find myself a few points short. I've considered another unit of troops, which would be a good move, but to free up that many points would involve downgrading the Sanguinor to something cheaper, but I'm uncertain as to what else would work. Anyway.

HQ
The Sanguinor - 275pts

Command Squad - Jump Packs, 3x Meltas, Blood Champion - 195pts

Elites
Sanguinary Priest - 50pts

Sanguinary Priest - 50pts

Troops
Assault Squad - 10-man; 2x Flamers. Sergeant - Power Weapon - 215pts
Land Raider Redeemer - Multi-Melta - 215pts

Assault Squad - 10-man; 2x Flamers. Sergeant - Power Weapon - 215pts
Land Raider Redeemer - Multi-Melta - 215pts

1430 pts total
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Old 16 Apr 2010, 22:56   #4 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: The Sons of Embers and Ashes - BA 1500

Sorry to carry on but...

The first thing I see in this list is a seriously lack of Anti Tank, I mean in the whole list you have five melta weapons, two of which are on LRR, which shouldn't really be tanking hunting... Also, I don't ge tthe point of the LRRs as your assault squads are Jump infantry, so they cannot embark. Unless that is the reason for the LRRs drop in price, so it is fine. But still, the list seems to lack Anti Tank quite heavily, and armour heavy lists (and MEQ lists) should cause a lot of problems.

Right, so the list seems extremely small, even for a MEQ army, as it only has twenty eight models it in but you should at least have thirty infantry in the list that are not ICs. But I suppose you will have to deal with that in your own way, hence the LRRs, but I don't think the LRRs will outweigh the loss of pure manpower. Although you make it harder for your opponents to get those kill points, you kind of make it easier, as that command squad will be the only infantry (excluded the Sanguinator as a possibility) sat infront of your opponent's lines.

Once again I would avoid taking the Sanguinator in such small points games, as he will not (most likely) pay for himself and will probably get shot down without any support. Look at it this way, if your opponent has first turn, he will have three targets to shoot at (Sanguinator and the LRRs). If you DS him, then your opponent will be able to bring the full force of his shooting at two tanks, and it will at least stop them from moving.

I would, as a minimum, give the LRRs extra armour to avoid these situations but I would further recommend taking good old (fast) rhinos, as they get the job done and will free up lots of points.

EDIT: Yeah, sorry about how harsh I'm coming across, I'm kind of taking the 'extreme negative feedback' approach, and if it is offensive in anyway don't hesistae to mention. I can say that this list is a lot better than the last, and this one is actually a pretty solid list, just giving you options to make it better (in my opinion of course).
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[spoiler=40K Clones]Wanna play as clones in 40K?
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Old 16 Apr 2010, 22:58   #5 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: The Sons of Embers and Ashes - BA 1500

Not bad at all, Apollo.

Your Command Squad looks good. Personally, I think Sanguinor is a sink in this list. Dante, for example, is a few dozen points cheaper and he can accurately Deep Strike your Command Squad. Or you can just go with a normal HQ. But I haven't run Sanguinor yet so feel free to give him a try and let us know how it goes.

Your Assault units look great, though I can't help but feel they'd be better served with a hidden Fist than a Power Weapon. Perhaps the points could go here?

I'm happy you've decided to drive your Raiders across the board. A first turn 12" + Smoke followed by a second turn of 12" and deploy and assault will be much more successful than Deep Striking, where you'll get on the board on turn 2 at the very best.

My main beef with this list is it is... very, very small for 1.5k. There's really not much to do to remedy that short of completely changing the list. If you didn't have the Land Raiders you could fit in, at least, another 20 marines, likely more. Sanguinor is likewise another entire veteran unit in of himself!

@Silk, the Land Raiders are the low points cost that they are because he removed jump packs for the discount on transports. Apollo didn't note it in the list, but the points costs are correct and his assault units will simply be riding in the Land Raider rather than jumping.
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Old 17 Apr 2010, 00:13   #6 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: The Sons of Embers and Ashes - BA 1500

@SS: Please, feel free to carry on! I'm a little out of practice with list making, and with a new codex, I need the help.
In regards to AV, I've modestly increased it, but I can also use the Assault Cannons as well if necessary to make sure something dies when it really, really has to.
The numbers again I've modestly increased, hopefully enough to boost the survival of the Command Squad.
Sanguinator has gone as, while fun, just couldn't justify him any more
Instead of EA, the Librarian will be making use of Shield of Sanguinius to provide a cover save for the Raiders - again, should help to improve their survivability. Agreed, I'd prefer to take Extra Armour, but I'm unsure of where to take the points from.

OT: Don't worry, you haven't come across as harsh to me You've given me useful, constructive and, most importantly, *justified* criticism - just what I need.

@Seth: Thanks As I say, a little out of practice with lists, but trying to find my stride again.
Both of you agreeing was enough to make me seriously rethink Sanguinior, so he's gone.
The Fists have gone into the new units, although I'm not sure whether I should swap one of the Fists with the Power Weapon. Thoughts?
And DSing Raiders does look fun, but just seems too unreliable, unfortunately.
Numbers have increased as much, I think, as can be managed in this list, and shouldn't be too bad, considering everything has FNP, and has no need of walking across the field.

Thanks for the help so far both of you

And now for the listing!

Only thing I'm unsure of is the Champion I've had to drop, as I can't count - the cost of the Command Squad was wrong. Now it's lacking a power weapon of any kind, which makes me a little uneasy. ://

HQ
Librarian: Sanguine Sword, The Shield of Sanguinius - 100pts

Command Squad - Jump Packs, 3x Meltas - 195pts

Elites
Sanguinary Priest - 50pts

Sanguinary Priest - 50pts

Troops
Assault Squad - 10-man, 1x Flamer - 195pts
Land Raider Redeemer - Multi-Melta - 215pts

Assault Squad - 10-man, 1x Flamer, 1x Power Weapon - 210pts
Land Raider Redeemer - Multi-Melta - 215pts

Assault Squad - 5-man; 1x Melta, 1x Power Fist - 135pts

Assault Squad - 5-man; 1x Melta, 1x Power Fist - 135pts

1500pts
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Old 17 Apr 2010, 00:19   #7 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: The Sons of Embers and Ashes - BA 1500

Which Assault Squads have Jump Packs? Your Redeemers look expensive - if you're taking them without Packs they should be 35 points less.
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Old 17 Apr 2010, 00:22   #8 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: The Sons of Embers and Ashes - BA 1500

Well I can see from the get-go that this list is much improved and definately gives of the vibe of a good, solid list now (more importance on the solid aspect of the list). One thing I would still strongly recommend is the extra armour on those LRRs, you really don't want them being held up and launching an assault one turn too late, whilst your other squad is on it's own.

By the waythanks Seth for pointing out the LRRs which I totally mentioned on chat :shifty:

:P
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafe
Edit: Silk Spectre wins the thread.
[spoiler=40K Clones]Wanna play as clones in 40K?
Quote:
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[/spoiler]
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Old 17 Apr 2010, 00:27   #9 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: The Sons of Embers and Ashes - BA 1500

@ Seth: Sorry, typo. Fixed now. Basically, everything not in the Raiders has packs

@SS: I'm not quite sure whether a difference in turns to target will matter that way, as I doubt they'll be assaulting the same target, but point taken; unfortunately, about the only way I can see to free up the points is to start to hack into my model count again. Toss up, and one that will have to be put down to playtesting, I believe

Also, yay, my list is the subject of gossip
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Old 17 Apr 2010, 00:31   #10 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: The Sons of Embers and Ashes - BA 1500

It's looking very good. I'm curious, which psychic powers are you considering for the Librarian? The Blood Angels are really spoilt for choices in that regard. :P
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